Quality of Canadian urbanism

[Edmonchuk]

Edmonton's city plan ---> https://cityplan.edmonton.ca

2 million residents within the city boundaries with additional 500k in the core alone.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Also Pacific Place Mall in the NE. I think its big enough to count.

https://www.pacificplacemall.com/directory/

It would be nearly impossible to compile a similar list of malls (including even smaller malls like these ones) in the GTA. There must be well over a hundred.

That's true - I definitely tried with the GTA and know I only scratched the surface.

Originally Posted by esquire

Garden City Square was on the north side of Leila, opposite Garden City Square. It was kind of neighbourhood mall anchored by Safeway and Woolco but it also had some clothing stores and the usual 80s assortment of retailers in the mall area.

Also, you could add Fort Garry Place to the list of downtown malls although it was dead on arrival... unlike Portage Place which actually had a heyday that lasted 6 or 7 years, Fort Garry Place never took off and it's mostly offices today (a bit like Commerce Place's retail levels in Edmonton, in some respects). You can wander through it and it's actually kind of trippy... a very weird, little known part of the city.

I wonder if the dominance of downtown Winnipeg's department stores had anything to do with the relative lack of suburban mall growth? Eaton's and The Bay were absolutely massive stores that continued to draw large shopping crowds well into the 80s.

Interesting.

Yeah I had no idea about Fort Garry Place to be honest. Wasn't there a point when like half of every dollar earned in Winnipeg went to that Eaton's department store? Is the other Garden City mall basically where the Home Depot now is?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Yeah I had no idea about Fort Garry Place to be honest. Wasn't there a point when like half of every dollar earned in Winnipeg went to that Eaton's department store? Is the other Garden City mall basically where the Home Depot now is?

I don't remember the exact statistic (might have been in Ross Gourluck's book about the downtown Eaton's store) but suffice it to say that the two big downtown department stores sucked up a huge part of each retail dollar spent in Winnipeg for many years.

And yeah, the 'de-malled' Garden City Square is where the Home Depot is.

[niwell]

Not sure what you'd call it exactly, but the approximated vector art style cartography in Edmonton's City Plan maps really irks me. Everything looks like the logo of a design agency 5 years ago. Just produce accurate maps!!!

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

How are the downtown malls holding up during the pandemic? I can tell you that Portage Place in Winnipeg is dead... there is not much left beyond the food court, cell phone shops and some random discount outlets. Many shops have closed over the last year and a half. Up until the mid 90s this was a major mall bookended by Eaton's and The Bay's downtown stores at either end.

The Eaton Centre in Sudbury is a shambling corpse.

It also has a rooftop parkade and the owners' cash-flow can't be super-great, so I do have sort of a morbid vision of an Elliot Lake style mall collapse some decade in the future.

That's the tragedy of malls. They're absolutely useless for being repurposed, unlike smaller buildings. They rot until they have to be bulldozed.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Razor

Did Canada learn from America's downtown abandonment?. It just seems to me that our cities are following or have followed similar paths with flight to the suburbs and exurbs where the SFH;s, the giant outlet centres and cookie cutter box stores are located.Our version of flight just seems to be more tempered down and we don't have the same crime rate in our cores, nor pure "no go" zones..Are we simply just decades behind them with U.S style blighted Downtown areas?.I hope not..I hope we learned from watching what they went through with lots of their cities..There are different dynamics to each country causing or preventing I suppose.

Our larger cities have done quite well. The closest we had to Detroit was (maybe?) Winnipeg. Detroit would have done anything to do as well as Winnipeg during that time.

Our smaller cities did less well. Why? Not the typical US reasons, but the fact that these places were not really downtown-focused to begin with, aside from shopping. They were industrial/farm-country cities (Sudbury and Brantford come to mind) whose nodes of employment were decentralized. With lots of land and the era of cheap detached housing in full swing, why would one stay downtown when you had to commute to a manufacturing plant or mine for work anyway?

The foolish redevelopment schemes (bulldoze neighbourhoods and plop down huge monuments to hubris) made things worse, because it destroyed the potential for a natural redevelopment at human scale. A super-mall can't be converted into cheap housing by a few investors - it requires big money. Whereas a former rowhouse can be repurposed to a storefront. We live with those choices.

[esquire]

I think a lot of shopping malls are probably reaching the end of their natural lifespans, especially the older 60s and 70s built malls. I mean, they could stand indefinitely but I don't know how appealing a prospect it is to do major renovations, put in a new roof, new HVAC systems, etc. when your mall is barely breaking even and there are tempting redevelopment prospects.

It does seem that the one two punch of online shopping and covid could end up doing in a lot of malls. For instance, I could see Winnipeg becoming a four mall town... Polo Park as the main regional mall, St. Vital and Kildonan Place in the suburbs, and the outlet mall doing its own thing. The good news is that we might see better uses of some of the other mall sites, although realistically many will simply become some version of a power centre (as some already have).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think a lot of shopping malls are probably reaching the end of their natural lifespans, especially the older 60s and 70s built malls. I mean, they could stand indefinitely but I don't know how appealing a prospect it is to do major renovations, put in a new roof, new HVAC systems, etc. when your mall is barely breaking even and there are tempting redevelopment prospects.

It does seem that the one two punch of online shopping and covid could end up doing in a lot of malls. For instance, I could see Winnipeg becoming a four mall town... Polo Park as the main regional mall, St. Vital and Kildonan Place in the suburbs, and the outlet mall doing its own thing. The good news is that we might see better uses of some of the other mall sites, although realistically many will simply become some version of a power centre (as some already have).

My hope is that they're redeveloped into moderate-to-high density housing.

They're well-serviced and usually located on transit corridors. They've the footprint to accommodate a decent amount of parking. They've got the infrastructure to accommodate the load imposed by high-density living.

They're also usually close to remaining useful places like grocery stores.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thewave46

My hope is that they're redeveloped into moderate-to-high density housing.

They're well-serviced and usually located on transit corridors. They've the footprint to accommodate a decent amount of parking. They've got the infrastructure to accommodate the load imposed by high-density living.

They're also usually close to remaining useful places like grocery stores.

I guess the ones in more desirable locations will become housing, the ones in less desirable locations will become strip mall/power centres.

I was impressed with CF's plans for Richmond Centre, which is a thriving mall in a very desirable location. Basically the parking lots will be developed with various mixed uses while the mall remains in place. Has construction started on that yet?

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by niwell

Not sure what you'd call it exactly, but the approximated vector art style cartography in Edmonton's City Plan maps really irks me. Everything looks like the logo of a design agency 5 years ago. Just produce accurate maps!!!

Agreed, I wish the maps were more or less geographically accurate and easier to read.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think a lot of shopping malls are probably reaching the end of their natural lifespans, especially the older 60s and 70s built malls. I mean, they could stand indefinitely but I don't know how appealing a prospect it is to do major renovations, put in a new roof, new HVAC systems, etc. when your mall is barely breaking even and there are tempting redevelopment prospects.

It does seem that the one two punch of online shopping and covid could end up doing in a lot of malls. For instance, I could see Winnipeg becoming a four mall town... Polo Park as the main regional mall, St. Vital and Kildonan Place in the suburbs, and the outlet mall doing its own thing. The good news is that we might see better uses of some of the other mall sites, although realistically many will simply become some version of a power centre (as some already have).

That would make sense to me, although Grant Park is surprisingly busy. The movie theatre and McNally Robinson as well as the neighbourhood grocer and Winners are probably what keep it afloat.

But in practice, Winnipeg already kind of is a four mall town. Kildonan Place, St Vital, the Outlet Mall, and Polo Park are the only malls with significant draw with destination retailers.

I guess the Forks too, if you can consider that a mall.

Originally Posted by thewave46

My hope is that they're redeveloped into moderate-to-high density housing.

They're well-serviced and usually located on transit corridors. They've the footprint to accommodate a decent amount of parking. They've got the infrastructure to accommodate the load imposed by high-density living.

They're also usually close to remaining useful places like grocery stores.

That is the plan for Winnipeg's Polo Park (despite it being a high performing mall) and Edmonton's Bonnie Doon.

[urbandreamer]

Interesting that a topic about urbanism has turned into a suburban mall discussion. The only "mall" I frequent is Waterloo Town Square. Four more stores have closed since the pandemic began so now it's just got a Valumart grocery store, Shopper's Drug Mart, Polish bakery, nail salon, dentist office, gift shop, sock store, 2 cell phone related stores, a realtor, and three restaurants. I wish they'd bulldoze the thing and build apartments on the site. Conestoga Mall looks busy when I drive by.

In Toronto I mostly go to the Eaton Centre.

Probably my favourite surprise mall visit this year was London's Masonville Place - very busy (I hadn't been there since it opened - 1985.)

[Razor]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It seems you’ve not noticed the apartment towers going up in the cores of cities across the country.

Yes. true, but at the same time I've also noticed big box stores, movie theatres, and your typical chains out in the suburbs. Even night life..In my original post I was just pondering (as a thought experiment), whether some of our major cities were at risk of that dystopian U.S style abandonment in the midterm future, but as you mentioned, there is a concerted effort to build apartment buildings, condos, and lots of new retail to encourage people to live downtown. Also, the demographics are not as radical like another poster stated. Perhaps we did observe and learn what NOT to do, + history was kinder when it came to how our cities unfolded.

Originally Posted by thewave46

Our larger cities have done quite well. The closest we had to Detroit was (maybe?) Winnipeg. Detroit would have done anything to do as well as Winnipeg during that time.

Also true thankfully! The term inner city and it's negative implications don't apply to Canadian cities..At least for now, and hopefully for the future as well.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Razor

Also true thankfully! The term inner city and it's negative implications don't apply to Canadian cities..At least for now, and hopefully for the future as well.

Agree. Some US phenomena/terms like 'inner city' don't make sense in a Canadian context. The growth of suburbia and suburban retail hollowed out many Canadian downtowns but we never saw the racially motivated white flight common in US cities.

Canada does have some sad downtowns (Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Winnipeg) but in a large number of Canadian cities in makes more sense to talk about the 'outer city'. That's where the poor and marginalized are concentrated. They live on the periphery where real estate and rents are cheaper. Increasingly, Canadian downtowns are for the well heeled.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree. Some US phenomena/terms like 'inner city' don't make sense in a Canadian context. The growth of suburbia and suburban retail hollowed out many Canadian downtowns but we never saw the racially motivated white flight common in US cities.

Canada does have some sad downtowns (Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Winnipeg) but in a large number of Canadian cities in makes more sense to talk about the 'outer city'. That's where the poor and marginalized are concentrated. They live on the periphery where real estate and rents are cheaper. Increasingly, Canadian downtowns are for the well heeled.

If anything, the most successful Canadian inner cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Victoria) are at risk of becoming exclusive enclaves of the upper middle class and wealthy.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

If anything, the most successful Canadian inner cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Victoria) are at risk of becoming exclusive enclaves of the upper middle class and wealthy.

Maybe a few areas like Coal Harbour are like this, but the vast majority of inner city Vancouver are working class people. The City tends to protect and expand on developments taht cater to working class. I don't think we are headed in that direction (rich enclaves).

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

If anything, the most successful Canadian inner cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Victoria) are at risk of becoming exclusive enclaves of the upper middle class and wealthy.

Montréal's central part has about twice the population of the city of Vancouver with a higher population density.

about 10 boroughs for a total of 157km², population 1,155,000 or 7,355/km².

The 10 boroughs are almost entirely made up of triplexes and medium density dwellings. There are a multitude of condos available in these boroughs for less than $400k. You don't need to be upper middle class to buy in the central part of Montréal.

[ue]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree. Some US phenomena/terms like 'inner city' don't make sense in a Canadian context. The growth of suburbia and suburban retail hollowed out many Canadian downtowns but we never saw the racially motivated white flight common in US cities.

Canada does have some sad downtowns (Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Winnipeg) but in a large number of Canadian cities in makes more sense to talk about the 'outer city'. That's where the poor and marginalized are concentrated. They live on the periphery where real estate and rents are cheaper. Increasingly, Canadian downtowns are for the well heeled.

While not quite as pronounced as in the States, I think you could make an argument for racially-motivated flight exacerbating suburbanization trends in Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, and to some extent Edmonton. There's an oft-overlooked racial lens through which we can look at spatial realities of certain groups.

For example, in Winnipeg, with capital flight to suburbs after WWII, central areas became more dilapidated and due to racist business owners and landlords, Indigenous peoples who were often coerced into moving to Winnipeg from up north dealt with de facto segregation. Businesses would not serve and landlords would not rent to Indigenous people south of Portage, for example. It's less obvious but does still happen to this day, especially on the landlord side. Only the most dilapidated corners of the city were where Indigenous residents could live in and the presence of poor and racialized people in the inner city further caused flight of middle and upper income white capital.

Originally Posted by Pavlov

If anything, the most successful Canadian inner cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Victoria) are at risk of becoming exclusive enclaves of the upper middle class and wealthy.

Arguably this has already happened with Calgary. There are lower income areas, but none of them are in the inner city. The entirety of Calgary's central areas have been recolonized by yuppies, with the East Village the last slice to be gentrified. Of course, social services and shelters still exist, and once you've taken over every neighbourhood assuming the poverty would just move to another area, there are no places to congregate away from the more affluent. This means that you'll just see unhoused or poor people hanging out next to lavish landmarks and sparkling condos on gorgeous streetscapes.

Originally Posted by logan5

Maybe a few areas like Coal Harbour are like this, but the vast majority of inner city Vancouver are working class people. The City tends to protect and expand on developments taht cater to working class. I don't think we are headed in that direction (rich enclaves).

Well, Vancouver is expensive pretty much no matter where you go. So a development catering to working people is still going to be unaffordable and expensive.

[vid]

Thunder Bay has two downtowns, one is quite prosperous and in places somewhat exclusive, we'll call it µToronto, and the other is... µWinnipeg.

No single building in Prince Arthur's Landing stands out, but the combined effect is staggering!

[giallo]

If White Rock wasn't so detached from the rest of Vancouver (besides Surrey, of course), it's a place I'd really consider living in. They've arguably done the best job (outside of the downtown peninsula) of focusing the city around the ocean, and it's got the best weather, ie. the least amount of rain in the winter, in the metro region.

This video does a decent job showing off its attributes.

• Video Link