Quality of Canadian urbanism

[esquire]

How are the downtown malls holding up during the pandemic? I can tell you that Portage Place in Winnipeg is dead... there is not much left beyond the food court, cell phone shops and some random discount outlets. Many shops have closed over the last year and a half. Up until the mid 90s this was a major mall bookended by Eaton's and The Bay's downtown stores at either end.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

After not being allowed/wanting to be in a large enclosed building for a couple years, they're looking grim. Here in Hamilton we have about 3 proper shopping malls. One downtown, and 2 out in the suburbs.

The downtown one has always been a bit shady, but passing through there for the first time in two years a few months ago, there's more vacant storefronts than usual. The mall has a few anchors; a grocery store, two office towers, and the arena. They're all doing as fine as you can when live sport and working in the office are suddenly old hat, with the arena about to be renovated top to bottom, hopefully that'll help rejuvenate the place
The former Eaton centre attached to the mall is even worse off, but that's nothing new and it's slated to be demolished in a few years.

The one mall out in the suburbs (Eastgate Square) is similarly devoid in the smaller units, but the anchors seem to be doing fine. They're large spaces with separate entrances, so they've been able to stay open throughout - especially the grocery store. One of the anchor spaces, where Sears used to be, has been vacant for years, though, and altogether there aren't any plans to renovate or demolish that I've seen.

The other mall in the suburbs (Lime Ridge) is doing rather well. The newest and most modern of the 3, (opening in the mid 80s compared to the early 70s of the other two) the units are mostly full despite having no essential anchors like a grocery. Larger units - not just the anchors - in Lime Ridge have exterior doors, meaning they've been easier to access from outside. They're also places that benefit from proximity to the other commercial sprawl in the area. The grocery store might be down the road, but the bank is in the mall.

Initially, there was a plan to redevelop the one old, empty anchor unit into the city's new arena, an idea thankfully killed where it stood. Apart from that and the bus terminal set to be rebuilt, there's not much else happening there either.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by esquire

How are the downtown malls holding up during the pandemic? I can tell you that Portage Place in Winnipeg is dead... there is not much left beyond the food court, cell phone shops and some random discount outlets. Many shops have closed over the last year and a half. Up until the mid 90s this was a major mall bookended by Eaton's and The Bay's downtown stores at either end.

Hanging on, I think. I've only been in ours once in the past year, one evening a couple of weeks ago to see a movie after the theatres were allowed to re-open. The mall closes early most days though (6 pm I think?) so the foot traffic was light. But it looks like there are a lot of shops that are permanently shuttered.

Wouldn't surprise me if the owner (Real Properties Limited; a subsidiary of a larger property company called Yale which built Jackson Square, now in partnership with Manulife) is riding this out and hopeful they can revamp and replace the vacancies with chain retailers (with more valuable leases) once the central city's residential market really blooms.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

How are the downtown malls holding up during the pandemic?

Eaton Centre is still going strong but I think it's atypical for downtown malls.

Most downtown and equivalent malls i've visited are littered with empty storefronts. Far more than their contemporaries on streets.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

The one mall out in the suburbs (Eastgate Square) is similarly devoid in the smaller units, but the anchors seem to be doing fine. They're large spaces with separate entrances, so they've been able to stay open throughout - especially the grocery store. One of the anchor spaces, where Sears used to be, has been vacant for years, though, and altogether there aren't any plans to renovate or demolish that I've seen.

Lime Ridge was fairly busy when I went there about a week ago. I think it was a Sunday too, and near closing time.

Walked through Eastgate last week too, looking for a card shop (which the mall no longer has). I remarked to my wife "You know a mall is going downhill when there are so many mobile phone shops" The busiest stores seemed to be the "as seen on TV" outlet or whatever it's called, and HomeSense. Fortinos was probably busy too but we didn't go into it. Winners always seems to be popular as well, no matter which one you go to.

The city's long-term goal is to intensify Centennial Parkway and Queenston Rd., adding dense residential and commercial development. And the mall will be the terminus of the LRT. Perhaps we will soon see it re-imagined as the foundation of something new.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Eaton Centre is still going strong but I think it's atypical for downtown malls.

Most downtown and equivalent malls i've visited are littered with empty storefronts. Far more than their contemporaries on streets.

Yeah, Eaton Centre and Pacific Centre are probably in their own league of Canadian downtown malls.

Even the big suburban mall in my neck of the woods, St. Vital Centre, which is basically the #2 mall in Winnipeg after Polo Park, looks like a ghost town these days. It's not quite hollowed out but there have been more than a few closures.

I wonder if the malls will bounce back or if this will be the death knell where basically all the non-first tier malls (i.e. the ones without Apple Stores) just kind of wither away?

[Razor]

Did Canada learn from America's downtown abandonment?. It just seems to me that our cities are following or have followed similar paths with flight to the suburbs and exurbs where the SFH;s, the giant outlet centres and cookie cutter box stores are located.Our version of flight just seems to be more tempered down and we don't have the same crime rate in our cores, nor pure "no go" zones..Are we simply just decades behind them with U.S style blighted Downtown areas?.I hope not..I hope we learned from watching what they went through with lots of their cities..There are different dynamics to each country causing or preventing I suppose.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Razor

Did Canada learn from America's downtown abandonment?. It just seems to me that our cities are following or have followed similar paths with flight to the suburbs and exurbs where the SFH;s, the giant outlet centres and cookie cutter box stores are located.Our version of flight just seems to be more tempered down and we don't have the same crime rate in our cores, nor pure "no go" zones..Are we simply just decades behind them with U.S style blighted Downtown areas?.I hope not..I hope we learned from watching what they went through with lots of their cities..There are different dynamics to each country causing or preventing I suppose.

what about Bari and its erstwhile shopping mall crisis?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Razor

Did Canada learn from America's downtown abandonment?. It just seems to me that our cities are following or have followed similar paths with flight to the suburbs and exurbs where the SFH;s, the giant outlet centres and cookie cutter box stores are located.Our version of flight just seems to be more tempered down and we don't have the same crime rate in our cores, nor pure "no go" zones..Are we simply just decades behind them with U.S style blighted Downtown areas?.I hope not..I hope we learned from watching what they went through with lots of their cities..There are different dynamics to each country causing or preventing I suppose.

It seems you’ve not noticed the apartment towers going up in the cores of cities across the country.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Razor

Did Canada learn from America's downtown abandonment?. It just seems to me that our cities are following or have followed similar paths with flight to the suburbs and exurbs where the SFH;s, the giant outlet centres and cookie cutter box stores are located.Our version of flight just seems to be more tempered down and we don't have the same crime rate in our cores, nor pure "no go" zones..Are we simply just decades behind them with U.S style blighted Downtown areas?.I hope not..I hope we learned from watching what they went through with lots of their cities..There are different dynamics to each country causing or preventing I suppose.

The path may have had some similarity, but the demographic influences behind the trends had more differences.

I don't think we're decades behind. I think the timing was close, but we're farther ahead climbing back to vibrant central cities.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, Eaton Centre and Pacific Centre are probably in their own league of Canadian downtown malls.

Even the big suburban mall in my neck of the woods, St. Vital Centre, which is basically the #2 mall in Winnipeg after Polo Park, looks like a ghost town these days. It's not quite hollowed out but there have been more than a few closures.

I wonder if the malls will bounce back or if this will be the death knell where basically all the non-first tier malls (i.e. the ones without Apple Stores) just kind of wither away?

St Vital is interesting too, because they did that big renovation recently and it arguably looks nicer than Polo Park. I was surprised at the vacancies, especially in busier corridors. The mall didn't feel quite dead, though, when I was last there in August. Seemed somewhat busier than the Outlet Mall (which I visited in June, when things were more locked down, admittedly).

It's kind of surprising how few malls Winnipeg has. There's Garden City, Kildonan Place, St Vital, Outlet Mall, Polo Park, Grant Park, and the 3 downtown malls. There used to be the mall at Unicity. 9 existing, 10 total.

Edmonton, by comparison, has Southgate, WEM, Londonderry, Kingsway, St Albert Centre, Sherwood Park Mall, Bonnie Doon, Mill Woods Town Centre, City Centre, Manulife, Commerce, Northgate, Meadowlark, Westmount, HUB Mall, and the Outlet Mall. There also used to be Heritage Mall, Capilano, Abbotsfield, and Mayfield. 16 current, 20 total.

Yes, Edmonton is much bigger now, but in the heyday of the indoor mall, Edmonton was closer to, and at one point much smaller than, Winnipeg. The only mall Edmonton's built since 1990 is the Outlet Mall (which I believe is also the case for Winnipeg). Considering Polo Park was one of the first indoor malls in Canada and the cold climate, it's surprising there isn't as much of a "mall culture" like there is in Edmonton, Calgary, and even Toronto.

[Doady]

Sprawl is a verb, reducing density, increasing car dependence, which is still ongoing in the USA. Canada has been doing the exact opposite: increasing density, increasing transit ridership. It is hard to hard to see signs of a looming mass exodus and abandonment of inner cities in favour of single-family houses in car-dependent suburbs. Even the suburbs never oriented away from apartment living and transit, and they have only focused more and more on apartments and transit in recent years. There was never hard boundaries between city and suburb, between pre-war and post-war in Canada, and they have only become more and more connected in recent years, and of course the downtowns are the most connected places.

US and Canadian urban areas might seem very similar on the surface, but if you look deeper, like the rate of transit, walking and cycling in both countries, they might be more much more different than you expect:

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

St Vital is interesting too, because they did that big renovation recently and it arguably looks nicer than Polo Park. I was surprised at the vacancies, especially in busier corridors. The mall didn't feel quite dead, though, when I was last there in August. Seemed somewhat busier than the Outlet Mall (which I visited in June, when things were more locked down, admittedly).

It's kind of surprising how few malls Winnipeg has. There's Garden City, Kildonan Place, St Vital, Outlet Mall, Polo Park, Grant Park, and the 3 downtown malls. There used to be the mall at Unicity. 9 existing, 10 total.

Edmonton, by comparison, has Southgate, WEM, Londonderry, Kingsway, St Albert Centre, Sherwood Park Mall, Bonnie Doon, Mill Woods Town Centre, City Centre, Manulife, Commerce, Northgate, Meadowlark, Westmount, HUB Mall, and the Outlet Mall. There also used to be Heritage Mall, Capilano, Abbotsfield, and Mayfield. 16 current, 20 total.

Yes, Edmonton is much bigger now, but in the heyday of the indoor mall, Edmonton was closer to, and at one point much smaller than, Winnipeg. The only mall Edmonton's built since 1990 is the Outlet Mall (which I believe is also the case for Winnipeg). Considering Polo Park was one of the first indoor malls in Canada and the cold climate, it's surprising there isn't as much of a "mall culture" like there is in Edmonton, Calgary, and even Toronto.

Unicity was the only major mall to be torn down in Winnipeg, but there were some other malls that were "de-malled" including Northgate, Charleswood Centre and Garden City Square. I may be missing others in other parts of town I wasn't as familiar with.

As an 80s kid I can tell you Winnipeg mall culture was pretty strong, going to the mall was a pretty big ritual when I was a kid, getting dragged there by my mom all the time. My wife had the same experience. By contrast, my kids barely know what a mall looks like, even pre-covid. In my neck of the woods in far NW Winnipeg, we didn't have a mall near us but our parents often made the trek to Polo Park, Northgate and Garden City.

Edmonton must surely have more malls per capita among larger Canadian cities... I'm not certain if it was optimism from the boom years or expectations of huge population growth or what, but Edmonton went harder with shopping malls than any other Canadian city I can think of.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

what about Bari and its erstwhile shopping mall crisis?

All of our retail issues would just be cured if life went back to the era of only retail downtown and department stores selling provisions and general merchandise as far as the eye could see.

Holt Renfrew would rule supreme and there would be no need for places such as Costco/Walmart. Flagship stores of super expensive stores would not be allowed to set up in a new town in a suburban location.

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

Unicity was the only major mall to be torn down in Winnipeg, but there were some other malls that were "de-malled" including Northgate, Charleswood Centre and Garden City Square. I may be missing others in other parts of town I wasn't as familiar with.

As an 80s kid I can tell you Winnipeg mall culture was pretty strong, going to the mall was a pretty big ritual when I was a kid, getting dragged there by my mom all the time. My wife had the same experience. By contrast, my kids barely know what a mall looks like, even pre-covid. In my neck of the woods in far NW Winnipeg, we didn't have a mall near us but our parents often made the trek to Polo Park, Northgate and Garden City.

Edmonton must surely have more malls per capita among larger Canadian cities... I'm not certain if it was optimism from the boom years or expectations of huge population growth or what, but Edmonton went harder with shopping malls than any other Canadian city I can think of.

Is this the same Garden City that currently exists? Because the mall is definitely still there and is surprisingly busy considering how empty the CRUs are. I didn't know about Charleswood or Northgate, though.

Calgary also has a lot of malls, FWIW. Chinook, The Core, Southcentre, Marlborough, Sunridge, Deerfoot (recently redone into an outdoor shopping centre), CrossIron, New Horizon, Westbrook, Market, North Hill, and Northland. They've built two malls (CrossIron and New Horizon) in the past 15yrs too. 12 existing malls, so a bit less than Edmonton's 16, but I am not familiar with defunct malls in Calgary.

I'd be curious about Toronto's total mall square footage per capita. Obviously it's a much bigger city than the Prairie cities, but it has what feels like an inordinate of malls, including very healthy malls. There's Eaton Centre, the various underground malls, Dufferin Mall, Yorkdale, Lawrence Allen, Yonge-Eglinton, Empress Walk, Fairview, East York Town Centre, Eglinton Square, Scarborough Town Centre, Woodside Square, Sheridan Mall, Yorkgate, Woodbine, Sherway Gardens in the city. Then in the 905 there's Dixie, Square One, Erin Mills, Oakville Place, the two Burlington malls, Bramalea, Toronto Premium Outlets, Westdale, Shoppers World, Vaughan Mills, Promenade Mall, Hillcrest, Upper Canada, Markville, Pacific Mall, Pickering Mall, Oshawa Centre, and Whitby Mall. At least 35 and I'm no doubt missing some.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by ue

Is this the same Garden City that currently exists? Because the mall is definitely still there and is surprisingly busy considering how empty the CRUs are. I didn't know about Charleswood or Northgate, though.

Calgary also has a lot of malls, FWIW. Chinook, The Core, Southcentre, Marlborough, Sunridge, Deerfoot (recently redone into an outdoor shopping centre), CrossIron, New Horizon, Westbrook, Market, North Hill, and Northland. They've built two malls (CrossIron and New Horizon) in the past 15yrs too. 12 existing malls, so a bit less than Edmonton's 16, but I am not familiar with defunct malls in Calgary.

I'd be curious about Toronto's total mall square footage per capita. Obviously it's a much bigger city than the Prairie cities, but it has what feels like an inordinate of malls, including very healthy malls. There's Eaton Centre, the various underground malls, Dufferin Mall, Yorkdale, Lawrence Allen, Yonge-Eglinton, Empress Walk, Fairview, East York Town Centre, Eglinton Square, Scarborough Town Centre, Woodside Square, Sheridan Mall, Yorkgate, Woodbine, Sherway Gardens in the city. Then in the 905 there's Dixie, Square One, Erin Mills, Oakville Place, the two Burlington malls, Bramalea, Toronto Premium Outlets, Westdale, Shoppers World, Vaughan Mills, Promenade Mall, Hillcrest, Upper Canada, Markville, Pacific Mall, Pickering Mall, Oshawa Centre, and Whitby Mall. At least 35 and I'm no doubt missing some.

You missed two small malls in Calgary's CBD: Eau Claire Market and Dragon City Mall (in Chinatown). Maybe they're too small to really count?

[ue]

^ You're right. And I've been to both malls!

There's also the small Pacific Rim Mall in Edmonton's Chinatown North.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by ue

^ You're right. And I've been to both malls!

There's also the small Pacific Rim Mall in Edmonton's Chinatown North.

Also Pacific Place Mall in the NE. I think its big enough to count.

https://www.pacificplacemall.com/directory/

It would be nearly impossible to compile a similar list of malls (including even smaller malls like these ones) in the GTA. There must be well over a hundred.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by ue

Is this the same Garden City that currently exists? Because the mall is definitely still there and is surprisingly busy considering how empty the CRUs are. I didn't know about Charleswood or Northgate, though.

Calgary also has a lot of malls, FWIW. Chinook, The Core, Southcentre, Marlborough, Sunridge, Deerfoot (recently redone into an outdoor shopping centre), CrossIron, New Horizon, Westbrook, Market, North Hill, and Northland. They've built two malls (CrossIron and New Horizon) in the past 15yrs too. 12 existing malls, so a bit less than Edmonton's 16, but I am not familiar with defunct malls in Calgary.

.

Was recently at Northland mall. Most stores gone, soon all will be. Its getting a Deerfoot city (Old Deerfoot Mall) like makeover, outdoor etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Is this the same Garden City that currently exists? Because the mall is definitely still there and is surprisingly busy considering how empty the CRUs are. I didn't know about Charleswood or Northgate, though.

Garden City Square was on the north side of Leila, opposite Garden City Square. It was kind of neighbourhood mall anchored by Safeway and Woolco but it also had some clothing stores and the usual 80s assortment of retailers in the mall area.

Also, you could add Fort Garry Place to the list of downtown malls although it was dead on arrival... unlike Portage Place which actually had a heyday that lasted 6 or 7 years, Fort Garry Place never took off and it's mostly offices today (a bit like Commerce Place's retail levels in Edmonton, in some respects). You can wander through it and it's actually kind of trippy... a very weird, little known part of the city.

I wonder if the dominance of downtown Winnipeg's department stores had anything to do with the relative lack of suburban mall growth? Eaton's and The Bay were absolutely massive stores that continued to draw large shopping crowds well into the 80s.