West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The main line out to Aylmer is 15.4 km with 18 stations, for an average of about 900m between stations.

The plateau branch, which is dumb for other reasons, is 7km with 12 stations, for an average of 600m between stations.

For a surface-running LRT, I don't think that's an unreasonable frequency of stations.

Why do you think the Plateau line is dumb?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Why do you think the Plateau line is dumb?

Because it's bringing higher-order transit to an out-of-the-way suburban area that isn't very transit-supportive in its built form.

So, basically... North Ottawa transit thinking.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I'm happy that Gatineau is doing something for their west side residents and hopefully this all integrates later in a good Ottawa-Gatineau transit system.

Am I the only one who thinks they have way too many stations proposed though? Even if the stations aren't as grandiose as the Confederation Line, too many stations just adds to the cost and adds to the travel time. I used to HATE being on an OC Transpo bus that would pick people up at one stop, drive down literally 2 blocks (you could see the other stop from the previous one) and have to stop again to pick up 1 person)...

Not everyone can have a station at their door, people should realistically be expected to have to walk to the nearest station (to me in the Plateau, spacing should be about 1km between stations. That way, the farthest walk one would really have is 500m in either direction.

That is not an accurate statement. Riders also have to walk in off of side streets, so distances on average will be longer than the 500 m quoted if you place stations 1 km apart.

This approach is more like the original plan for Riverside South, that allows people to realistically walk onto the train instead of having to transfer by bus or having to support park n ride lots.

I do like the distance map far better than what we have seen from OC Transpo with the circles. This is far more realistic as far what real walking distances are.

I recall during system optimization in 2011, they included locations being within optimal walking distance that required a swim across the Rideau River.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The current target frequency into Ottawa is every 2 minutes, and elsewhere on their LRT system it will be 5 minutes during weekdays.

15 minutes on weekends.

From the PDF (pg 18) in post #214:

High frequency:

• 5 minutes at peak (2.5 minutes between boulevard Saint-Raymond and Prince of Wales Bridge)
• 15 minutes nights and weekends

From this I would assume that the trains will alternate between Bayview and Hull/Rideau.

[zzptichka]

Presentation: https://www.gatineau.ca/docs/la_ville/pr...ouest_gatineau/20180620_projet.en-CA.pdf



So they want 2 lines: Bayview-Plateau and Rideau-Aylmer. Interlining between POW and St-Raymond.
Makes sense. But if you work at Portage and live in Ottawa West or South you'll need to hop through 3 trains (and your local bus probably)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Presentation: https://www.gatineau.ca/docs/la_ville/pr...ouest_gatineau/20180620_projet.en-CA.pdf

Highers resolution version of the map from PDF.



I like how this map shows residents within walking distance (700m) of the LRT stations. Not just circles, but actual walking distance.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I like how this map shows residents within walking distance (700m) of the LRT stations. Not just circles, but actual walking distance.

+eleventy billion.

City of Ottawa cartographers, please, for the love of dog, take note.

[lrt's friend]

It will interesting to see how they address access to Rideau Station.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It will interesting to see how they address access to Rideau Station.

It looks like they hope to have the station will be at the Château Laurier (not at Rideau Station). The PDF says, "within walking distance of the Rideau station." My guess is no direct connection so people will have to use the Rideau Centre entrance, unless they decide to dig a pedestrian tunnel under Rideau.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It looks like they hope to have the station will be at the Château Laurier (not at Rideau Station). The PDF says, "within walking distance of the Rideau station." My guess is no direct connection so people will have to use the Rideau Centre entrance, unless they decide to dig a pedestrian tunnel under Rideau.

Are they going to tear down the former photo museum? I thought that blocked the old Chateau Laurier Hull Electric terminal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are they going to tear down the former photo museum? I thought that blocked the old Chateau Laurier Hull Electric terminal.

Maybe. It would make sense to put it there. I don't think they have got into that much detail though.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are they going to tear down the former photo museum? I thought that blocked the old Chateau Laurier Hull Electric terminal.

What's in that gallery overlooking the locks nowadays anyway? Seems like a natural place for a station.

[kevinbottawa]

I wasn't in favour of it before, but if this project goes forward, Ottawa and Gatineau should merge their transit services (GO Transpo=Gatineau Ottawa Transpo). It makes sense for the region to have one system operated by an somewhat independent regional transit authority that has representation from both municipalities.

On a side note, Jim Watson isn't wrong, but him telling Gatineau they have to fully pay for train service across the Prince of Wales Bridge reminds me of Trump telling Mexico he's going to make them pay for a wall.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It looks like they hope to have the station will be at the Château Laurier (not at Rideau Station). The PDF says, "within walking distance of the Rideau station." My guess is no direct connection so people will have to use the Rideau Centre entrance, unless they decide to dig a pedestrian tunnel under Rideau.

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

[acottawa]

I really don't see the point of messing around with the rail bridges. They are going to be a world of complications and litigation. Portage could easily accommodate the streetcars they're planning to use.

But if they do use the rail bridges:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

Couldn't they put the station under the bridge (the span covering the rail track is still there).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by jchilds72

I wonder if/how the proposed addition to the Chateau Laurier could affect the downtown terminus and if anyone has talked to them.

The terrasse, beside the hotel, beneath which the tracks used to be, are part of Major's Hill Park, so unless they are planning on building the extension on park land, it won't interfere.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

Why would it need to be underground? It would run along the old abandoned rail line, half way down the cliff at western edge of Major's Hill Park. It will be below the level of the Plaza Bridge, but that is hardly underground.

Now there are a bunch of tunnels under the Plaza Bridge that could be re-purposed. Below is one that connects the Chateau Laurier Hotel to the Government Conference Centre (formerly the Grand Trunk Railway Central Station and later Union Station).


CHRIS MIKULA / THE OTTAWA CITIZEN - April 2012

[zzptichka]

I guess it would look something like this:

[Horus]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I guess it would look something like this:

Looking at it from this perspective, it makes the St-Raymond segment seem less effective than it might be to route directly north from POW bridge (via Saint-Joseph?) and working up to Gamelin to rejoin the proposed route at Plateau. If those are distinct lines, having the interlined segment between Taché and Saint-Joseph stations is of little benefit.

I get it from a logistical standpoint, that Saint-Raymond is the path of least resistance as it has a wide ROW and median to use, but wouldn't using the Gamelin ROW across Gatineau Park, then curving south (perhaps at Moussette?) and then finding a route to the Saint-Joseph/Taché approach to the POW bridge provide a wider coverage range? If they could convince the NCC to give them access to the portion of Prom Lac-des-Fées between des Allumettières and Taché, they could connect to Moussette. This would service the Hospital area and provide at least somewhat close range (10-15min walk) to the Vincent-Massey complex. Then, when the Rapibus is converted to LRT, the Wrightville sector of Hull would have LRT service on both sides.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

Looking at it from this perspective, it makes the St-Raymond segment seem less effective than it might be to route directly north from POW bridge (via Saint-Joseph?) and working up to Gamelin to rejoin the proposed route at Plateau. If those are distinct lines, having the interlined segment between Taché and Saint-Joseph stations is of little benefit.

I get it from a logistical standpoint, that Saint-Raymond is the path of least resistance as it has a wide ROW and median to use, but wouldn't using the Gamelin ROW across Gatineau Park, then curving south (perhaps at Moussette?) and then finding a route to the Saint-Joseph/Taché approach to the POW bridge provide a wider coverage range? If they could convince the NCC to give them access to the portion of Prom Lac-des-Fées between des Allumettières and Taché, they could connect to Moussette. This would service the Hospital area and provide at least somewhat close range (10-15min walk) to the Vincent-Massey complex. Then, when the Rapibus is converted to LRT, the Wrightville sector of Hull would have LRT service on both sides.

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

Having said that, I do agree that running south and interlining between boulevard Saint-Raymond and Prince of Wales Bridge, probably isn't the best option overall. I don't think Gamelin is the best route though as it is very narrow and would require either a lot of land expropriation to widen it or grade separation. Both of these options would be very expensive.

A better option IMHO would be to run along Allumettières from Saint-Raymond to Laurier (shown in blue on my clip below), where it could be switched onto the other line to either loop back through Hull or continue across the Alexandra Bridge to Rideau.

As for the POW bridge, I just don't see it being the right choice. We are only considering it because it is there. Back when it was built in 1880, LeBreton Flats was the industrial centre of Ottawa and the Broad St. Station (located just south of where the War Musium now sits) soon after became Ottawa's first Union Station (Ottawa's central railway station that is where we now call downtown wasn't built until 1912). Now, it doesn't take anyone anywhere useful. That will change a bit with the development of LeBreton Flats, but most people's destination will still be downtown.

Instead I think we should revert the Chaudière Bridge back to an LRT bridge (it was previously used for Street Cars) and then have it run to Bay and Spark Street (or possibly a bit further). This (when combined with a Rideau St. Station) would get most people within a 700m walk of their destination. Those who aren't, could then transfer to a train (or bus) that has already alighted a significant portion of its passengers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

I noticed that too and hope we're not totally wedded to grandstanding with some percentage and screenline.

Most important should be the total number of people served.

A colleague at work and I were observing that for what most people consider Hull*, about 70-80%+ of it won't have any rapid transit of any kind until the 2030s at the earliest. Basically everything except the very southernmost portion of Hull, and a small fringe served by Rapibus that is more industrial than residential. This is a very central part of our city. But nada.

*The eastern Plateau was part of the Ville de Hull, but is quite separate from central Hull.