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  #16781  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 1:55 AM
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ponyboycurtis ponyboycurtis is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Having ridden a Citadis tram in Istanbul, they were packed full and definitely handled some far sharper curves then lees/hurdman. They weren't going very fast though in general. Maybe it's not the curve but the high speed straight parts. The tram in Istanbul probably maxed out around 40kph due to congestion
Well I can tell you that the train in between Tremblay and Lees never exceeded 33 km/h the two times I pulled out my GPS last summer to see the speeds for myself.
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  #16782  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
It is not the curves. The reason? Because had the bearings been designed properly, they would take the forces generated from those curves.
They are LRVs and are only intended to make sharp turns on city streets (typically a right turn where vehicles drive on the right side of the road), where the other vehicles are also slowing to a crawl when making that turn. Next time you are out driving your truck in town, look at your speedometer when making a right turn at an intersection.
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  #16783  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 3:05 AM
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To be fair, none of the curves are equivalent to a right turn on a street.
     
     
  #16784  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
They are LRVs and are only intended to make sharp turns on city streets (typically a right turn where vehicles drive on the right side of the road), where the other vehicles are also slowing to a crawl when making that turn. Next time you are out driving your truck in town, look at your speedometer when making a right turn at an intersection.
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
To be fair, none of the curves are equivalent to a right turn on a street.
If there were 90 degree corners on this line, then, going too fast could be a culprit. Bust since their isn't, the curves are not the problem.
     
     
  #16785  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 2:48 PM
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Well, now we know something...
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/o-train-expected-to-return-to-service-by-july-31-1.6491216

Quote:
O-Train expected to return-to-service by July 31

Josh Pringle
CTV News Ottawa Digital Multi-Skilled Journalist



Updated July 24, 2023 10:18 a.m. EDT
Published July 24, 2023 4:00 a.m. EDT


Ottawa's light-rail transit system will remain out of service for at least another week, as the investigation continues into a bearing-related issue on one train.

In a memo to council, Transit Services general manager Renee Amilcar announced the return-to-service for the O-Train is expected by July 31.

Amilcar adds Alstom and Rideau Transit Group have agreed to a design modification to the wheel hub assembly, that means "Ottawa will finally have a permanent fix to this bearing issue."

....

Last edited by Horus; Jul 24, 2023 at 2:49 PM. Reason: added link
     
     
  #16786  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 3:18 PM
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Given the timing and the “have agreed to” language, they’ve known about this fix for a while and just left the people of Ottawa to deal with the shutdowns and slow trains right?
     
     
  #16787  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Fading Isle View Post
Given the timing and the “have agreed to” language, they’ve known about this fix for a while and just left the people of Ottawa to deal with the shutdowns and slow trains right?
If the fix has been known for a while, the "agreed to" part probably just means that RTG/Alstom have now agreed to who will pay the cost of the implementation of this miraculous "permanent" fix.
     
     
  #16788  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
If the fix has been known for a while, the "agreed to" part probably just means that RTG/Alstom have now agreed to who will pay the cost of the implementation of this miraculous "permanent" fix.
Well, one of the accidents was a bearing failure, so fixing the failure point has likely been a project for suppliers for a few years now.
     
     
  #16789  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
If the fix has been known for a while, the "agreed to" part probably just means that RTG/Alstom have now agreed to who will pay the cost of the implementation of this miraculous "permanent" fix.
This is what happens when the system is not run/maintained in house.
     
     
  #16790  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
This is what happens when the system is not run/maintained in house.
When a government buys directly from suppliers, it is similarly a thing. Just with fewer parties to the dispute.
     
     
  #16791  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
This is what happens when the system is not run/maintained in house.
Like the bus network that runs so reliably and consistently, right?
     
     
  #16792  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
When a government buys directly from suppliers, it is similarly a thing. Just with fewer parties to the dispute.
That is the point. My feeling is if this was all done in house, this mess would be more of a political suicide if it kept happening. The politicians can blame "the evil corporations" and get away with it. Not so easy when it is a city department.

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Originally Posted by DTcrawler View Post
Like the bus network that runs so reliably and consistently, right?
The difference is, no one is to blame for the bus problems other than the city. The same cannot be said about the LRT.
     
     
  #16793  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 8:30 PM
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I wonder how this will affect all the other Citadis Spirits ordered for the GTA and Québec City that would have been sold with the same defective bogie design. That could be a big reason for all of this being so hush hush until 2-years later when Alstom was finally forced to acknowledge its design is well and truly non-viable for the uses it was sold.
     
     
  #16794  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Fading Isle View Post
I wonder how this will affect all the other Citadis Spirits ordered for the GTA and Québec City that would have been sold with the same defective bogie design. That could be a big reason for all of this being so hush hush until 2-years later when Alstom was finally forced to acknowledge its design is well and truly non-viable for the uses it was sold.
One would hope the engineers would have a solution to salvage this model.
     
     
  #16795  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 9:18 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
That is the point. My feeling is if this was all done in house, this mess would be more of a political suicide if it kept happening. The politicians can blame "the evil corporations" and get away with it. Not so easy when it is a city department.



The difference is, no one is to blame for the bus problems other than the city. The same cannot be said about the LRT.
The city should own a bearing pack plant? Like I get the impact is huge, but the bus equivalent would be if one of the two compatible bus engine suppliers started having huge reliability issues. The city would have no ability to self recover, and would be at the mercy of the supply chain.
     
     
  #16796  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
The city should own a bearing pack plant? Like I get the impact is huge, but the bus equivalent would be if one of the two compatible bus engine suppliers started having huge reliability issues. The city would have no ability to self recover, and would be at the mercy of the supply chain.
Does the city own a tire factory for their buses? No different.
     
     
  #16797  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 9:52 PM
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couple interesting tidbits here - new axle design coming with RTG eating the costs, defective axle hub got shipped to france


https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...s-week-several-tests-of-system-conducted

LRT shutdown to continue through this week, permanent fixes will take over a year
Joanne Laucius
Published Jul 24, 2023

The city’s LRT Confederation Line is expected to be out of service through at least this week, and it will take at least a year for the system’s problem-plagued light rail vehicle wheel hub assemblies to be replaced.

LRT shutdown to continue through this week, permanent fixes will take over a year

The system will gradually resume service at the start of next week as long as three conditions are met, Renée Amilcar, the city’s general manager of transit services, said Monday.

First, all of the axle bearings in the city’s light rail vehicle fleet have to be inspected. That had been completed on 44 vehicles as of Monday morning. Six need further investigation with “an abundance of caution,” Amilcar said.

Second, Amilcar said she needs the results of an analysis of the wheel hub, which is being conducted by Alstom, the manufacturer of Ottawa’s specially designed Citadis Spirit trains. That is expected on July 28.

Amilcar also needs revised safety notes from Alstom and Rideau Transportation Group (RTG). “That note is in progress and I expect it by the end of this week,” she said.

Confederation Line trains were pulled from service late in the afternoon of July 17 after a routine maintenance inspection found excess grease on a train axle.

The grease was noticed during a 50,000-kilometre check, which includes a visual inspection of the underbody of the vehicle, triggering a raft of tests on the rails and the entire fleet of train cars.

There will be a permanent solution to the issue — but it will take time. There has been a firm commitment from Alstom and RTG to redesign the axles to permanently fix the problem, said Amilcar.

The city has been working with Alstom on a preliminary design, which has demonstrated that the axle can be strengthened, she said. A detailed design and prototype should be ready in the next 12 months, but it will need extensive testing.

The cost of the new axles will be absorbed by Rideau Transit Group (RTG), the consortium that built the Confederation Line and was awarded a 30-year contract to maintain it.

The axle design has been at the centre of many of the problems the system has experienced and a permanent fix is the most important thing, said Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe.

“It’s going to take some time, unfortunately, but that’s the nature of the work,” he said. “I believe that one day we will have safe, reliable light rail service for the people of Ottawa.”

Serving 13 stations, the $2.1-billion Confederation Line has had a series of breakdowns since its launch four years ago.

Trains were pulled from service to be checked last July after an LRT operator reported an “unusual vibration,” one of three cases of cartridge assembly failures probed by the Transportation Safety Board, the independent federal agency that investigates accidents and makes safety recommendations.

The LRT operator’s warning averted a possible derailment on the Confederation Line due to an axle hub that was on the verge of “catastrophic failure,” the TSB said in an advisory letter to the city, released in February. Parts on Ottawa’s trains have been wearing out early and “well below industry standards for cartridge assemblies.”

The TSB said the July 2022 incident, along with an Aug. 8, 2021, derailment near Tunney’s Pasture Station and a Sept. 19, 2021, derailment near Tremblay Station, involved failures of the cartridge assembly connecting the train’s wheels and axle to the drive train.

Ottawa’s interim city manager Wendy Stephanson said Monday collaboration between the city, RTG and Alstom has “improved significantly” and there is a “collective appreciation” for the urgency in addressing and resolving the situation and preventing future service disruption. Challenges in this relationship were raised as a primary concern in a public inquiry into the system, she noted.

The city filed a $131-million lawsuit against RTG in May 2021, claiming the consortium failed to meet certain terms of the deal to build the Confederation Line, including missing two key completion dates in 2018. The Confederation Line was handed over to the city in August 2019. In January, city council voted to negotiate a settlement.

Richard Holder, the city’s director of engineering services, said testing is underway on five elements of the system, including a walk-through of the entire line, which has not identified any problems.

Another test using digital instrumentation is underway, and the data is being analyzed. RTG is adjusting the “restraining rail,” a passive safety device that only becomes active if there is a risk of derailment. That work is to be concluded by July 30, said Holder.

The axle hub on the affected LRT vehicle has been sent to France, where it will be dismantled and inspected for signs of abnormal wear, said Holder. The results of this analysis should be completed by Friday. The grease from the hub has also been sent for analysis.

Meanwhile, data is being gathered on a test light rail vehicle to conduct loading tests during the hottest part of the day, and with varying loads, to see how the weight of passengers might affect equipment. “Preliminary indications are that a range of loads tested would not have caused an instantaneous failure. But repetitive loading cycles may have contributed to degraded reliability,” said Holder.

After the line was put out of service last week, transit users have been frustrated by the delays and inconvenience of R1 replacement bus service. But Amilcar did not speculate Monday on whether users could expect a refund or a discount for their fares.

“My focus is really to bring back the service. And we need a reliable service,” she said. “So we can probably talk about that later.”

Confidence in the LRT system is an issue, Mayor Sutcliffe acknowledged, but he doesn’t expect transit users to have confidence just because service is resuming in the next few days.

“Lasting trust and confidence will come only when the chronic and persistent conditions we have experienced have been permanently addressed,” he said. “I’m hopeful that is the beginning of a new period during which the recommendations of the inquiry are being closely followed.”
     
     
  #16798  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 10:15 PM
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Quote:

The city’s LRT Confederation Line is expected to be out of service through at least this week, and it will take at least a year for the system’s problem-plagued light rail vehicle wheel hub assemblies to be replaced.

LRT shutdown to continue through this week, permanent fixes will take over a year
Quote:
There will be a permanent solution to the issue — but it will take time. There has been a firm commitment from Alstom and RTG to redesign the axles to permanently fix the problem, said Amilcar.

The city has been working with Alstom on a preliminary design, which has demonstrated that the axle can be strengthened, she said. A detailed design and prototype should be ready in the next 12 months, but it will need extensive testing.
Which means it won't be ready in a year if they are only expecting a prototype to be ready in that time. That will need testing, and possible refinement, and more testing. Then full production and installation.

This so-called "permanent" fix is a long way away. I wonder what their plan is in the interim and how they plan to avoid extended shutdowns like this when the current bearing packs continue to fail?

Quote:
The cost of the new axles will be absorbed by Rideau Transit Group (RTG), the consortium that built the Confederation Line and was awarded a 30-year contract to maintain it.

The axle design has been at the centre of many of the problems the system has experienced and a permanent fix is the most important thing, said Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe.
Interesting that RTG is picking up the tab, considering some of the fault has to lie with Alstom.

Will the fix to the axle/bearing problem be resolved before the East/West Phase 2 extensions are ready, or could that add to the delays there as well?
     
     
  #16799  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 10:24 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Interesting that RTG is picking up the tab, considering some of the fault has to lie with Alstom.
I wouldn't read too much into it. Are we supposed to know who in the supply chain is paying for the ultimate fault? Who of Alstom's suppliers? If the supplier is building to Alstom's supplied design, who is it?

All that matters is it is not the city.

Last edited by MalcolmTucker; Jul 24, 2023 at 10:58 PM.
     
     
  #16800  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 10:51 PM
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Interesting that they have a "permeant fix" before they find the root cause of the issue. Hopefully, they will take it slow, installing it on only a few LRVs to conduct proper trials before implementing this to the entire fleet. We don't want to "Phoenix Pay System" the O-Train.

Maybe by the time Stage 2 East opens, we'll have something we can rely on.

As for RTG paying for it, I assume they want to get this done ASAP because the Band-Aid solutions and unpaid failed service delivery is costing them too much. No doubt that once the trains are fixed, they'll sue Alstom and/or supplier of the first set of wheel assemblies to recuperate some of the money.
     
     
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