Winnipeg | St Boniface | Development

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by trueviking

My osborne project has the same...the city uses the zoning requirement for 'foundation plantings" to bargain for street trees. Its not cheap. Osborne is getting two.

What makes it so expensive?

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

What makes it so expensive?

prolly needs a engineered stamp and then aproved suppyer in canadas screwy supply chain monopolies

[ColdRain&Snow]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

What makes it so expensive?

We need more street trees in Winnipeg, but if they cost the developer a lot then requiring a bunch of them could make certain developments unviable. Would it be cheaper for the City to plant street trees themselves and developers could pay a fee for this? Or is there a way to reduce the cost per tree through modifying the bylaws?

[Flatland Metropolis]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

I'm glad the project was approved. Thanks to everyone who wrote in their comments in support of the project.

Yes, upon completion, this will be a great addition to the St. Boniface core.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

We need more street trees in Winnipeg, but if they cost the developer a lot then requiring a bunch of them could make certain developments unviable. Would it be cheaper for the City to plant street trees themselves and developers could pay a fee for this? Or is there a way to reduce the cost per tree through modifying the bylaws?

Whatever the case, the city should make it easier and more desirable to plant trees, not harder.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

What makes it so expensive?

They make you put in silva cells, which are these big structural retentions systems that go under the sidewalk to keep soil in place....they definitely work well, but it can cost a hundred grand per tree once you've replaced the sidewalk and everything.

We definitely need more trees, it just doesn't seem fair to always push that cost on to developers.

[ColdRain&Snow]

Originally Posted by trueviking

They make you put in silva cells, which are these big structural retentions systems that go under the sidewalk to keep soil in place....they definitely work well, but it can cost a hundred grand per tree once you've replaced the sidewalk and everything.

We definitely need more trees, it just doesn't seem fair to always push that cost on to developers.

Thanks for the info, $100,000 per tree is ridiculous. Planting street trees is so important that there needs to be a more cost effective way. Which City department handles planting street trees? Is that Public Works?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by trueviking

They make you put in silva cells, which are these big structural retentions systems that go under the sidewalk to keep soil in place....they definitely work well, but it can cost a hundred grand per tree once you've replaced the sidewalk and everything.

We definitely need more trees, it just doesn't seem fair to always push that cost on to developers.

Oh my god, that's way more expensive than I would have thought. So it keeps the soil in place, does this mean that the roots don't become an issue? or does it merely kick that can down the road a bit more?

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by trueviking

They make you put in silva cells, which are these big structural retentions systems that go under the sidewalk to keep soil in place....they definitely work well, but it can cost a hundred grand per tree once you've replaced the sidewalk and everything.

We definitely need more trees, it just doesn't seem fair to always push that cost on to developers.

what in the that costs a 100k what a joke

[wags_in_the_peg]

Have u seen the trees along St Mary's or Norwood Bridge? Nothing but weeds growing all around them and many dead limbs. Didn't all trees along Portage Ave die? I'd personally prefer planters and Art/sculptures. Plant trees away from high traffic, keep it to yards, parks, residential streets

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

Have u seen the trees along St Mary's or Norwood Bridge? Nothing but weeds growing all around them and many dead limbs. Didn't all trees along Portage Ave die? I'd personally prefer planters and Art/sculptures. Plant trees away from high traffic, keep it to yards, parks, residential streets

these things they put the trees in dont help

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

Thanks for the info, $100,000 per tree is ridiculous. Planting street trees is so important that there needs to be a more cost effective way. Which City department handles planting street trees? Is that Public Works?

The people in Public Works and Forestry don't all like the soil cell requirement either. I've heard them bitch and moan about them.

It's a long term good (you get bigger trees and the drainage system ends up contributing to stormwater management, which is important in a flood prone city). But it's hard to keep that long-range perspective when you think about what you could do with the money that's going into these systems...

[zalf]

By happy coincidence, I came across this on Youtube today. Somewhat relevant to the street tree discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4m5iKRbkW4M

[bomberjet]

The tress on Main St downtown, for example, are planted in a trench type bedding that is shown in the video. Minus the permeable brick layer at the top. Trying to get them more root space. The bedding chambers are concrete walls to prevent the roots from spreading into the neighbouring areas. Not the greatest set-up since the tops are covered in concrete lids.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.89654...8192?entry=ttu

If you jump to this location, you'll notice both trees haven't survived for whatever reason and a new one is planted.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.89728...8192?entry=ttu

In general, the trees look in rough shape, so the bedding system has not worked.

[peg]

Traditional tree pits do not allow trees to thrive - they are practically coffins.

That paired with the stress of being replanted and a reduction in attention and care compared to a nursery environment causes a lot of new trees to die fast.

Tree roots spread horizontally more than they do vertically, so when you have no room for the roots the tree will not be happy and healthy.

As expensive as Silva cells are, they are an investment in making sure we have trees to pass on to the next generation. Structural soil is another decent option, less expensive but not as efficient or boogie as silva/ structural cells.

They are adding a bunch of structural cells under the Broadway sidewalks currently - I am excited to watch these trees grow over the next few years.

Some more info on Structural cells / Structural soil:
https://citygreen.com/structural-soi...better-choice/

Info on urban trees and the challenges they face:
https://streets.mn/2014/04/03/soil-a...a-street-tree/

[peg]

[Winnipeg Grump]

Originally Posted by trueviking

They make you put in silva cells, which are these big structural retentions systems that go under the sidewalk to keep soil in place....they definitely work well, but it can cost a hundred grand per tree once you've replaced the sidewalk and everything.

We definitely need more trees, it just doesn't seem fair to always push that cost on to developers.

Ah, the Manitoba Advantage (tm) in action! Let's charge developers 5 times the rate that everyone else pays.

https://transforming.edmonton.ca/let...nd-technology/

"On average, soil cells cost between $8,000 and $12,000 per large tree, but they can lead to substantial savings." (City of Edmonton, November 2021)

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Grump

Ah, the Manitoba Advantage (tm) in action! Let's charge developers 5 times the rate that everyone else pays.

https://transforming.edmonton.ca/let...nd-technology/

"On average, soil cells cost between $8,000 and $12,000 per large tree, but they can lead to substantial savings." (City of Edmonton, November 2021)

So that's.... a discrepancy. Dafuq

[esquire]

Kind of like how diamond interchanges cost multiple times what they cost everywhere else...

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Grump

Ah, the Manitoba Advantage (tm) in action! Let's charge developers 5 times the rate that everyone else pays.

https://transforming.edmonton.ca/let...nd-technology/

"On average, soil cells cost between $8,000 and $12,000 per large tree, but they can lead to substantial savings." (City of Edmonton, November 2021)

I call BS or at the very least misleading on that article. It's true, the materials alone for the actual Silva cell proprietary items themselves cost $8,000-$12,000 per tree. That doesn't account for excavation, backfill, labour, topsoil, geotextile, geogrid, drainage piping within the cells, distribution piping including curb inlets/catchbasins (recent additions to Winnipeg designs), tree grates/guards if needed, surface treatment (sidewalk, pavers)... In other words even if Edmonton isn't doing some of the "extras" like distribution piping its still costing them a hell of a lot more than 8-12k per tree.

That being said, in my mind its a tremendous waste of money, the Broadway Silva cells are costing between 1.5 and 2 MILLION just for the south side to put in 36 trees and it's going to be mirrored next year on the north side. If the average Winnipeger knew how much those cost I think even the most diehard tree hugger would have trouble justifying it. I think quoting 8-12k per tree in that article is just spin/damage control because those numbers are somewhat justifiable in the bigger picture compared to the true all-in cost that would be at least twice and likely 3 times that amount in Edmonton.