DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[twalm]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

I love that Westside is putting up a fence around the golf course. I love it more that SOS people are pissed. It would be great if they transplanted a bunch of coyotes or mountain lions to live in ther "open space".
https://denverite.com/2023/07/04/park-hill-golf-course-fencing-westside/

On April 4, Denver voters rejected the proposal to covert this land into Denver’s 4th largest public park, a new community grocery store, more than 2500 units of new attainable and affordable housing, and at least $150 million in community benefits. As a result, and in compliance with the explicit provisions of the conservation easement, the land will be returned exclusively to golf-related uses.

As a matter of liability and safety, we must regretfully close all public access effective immediately.

This is not an outcome that the landowners wanted, nor the one that Denver needs. If you’re upset, please contact the organizers behind the campaign opposing new public parks and affordable housing on this land.

This is hilarious

[TakeFive]

If you live in the City of Denver YOU owe $4,300; NOW PAY UP



laniroj mentioned I like going down rabbit holes so I decided to show my bone fides.

Forget WalletHub for now

I found a fun site that measures the fiscal health of 75 cities which are divided into "Sunshine Cites" or "Sinkhole Cities" -

Good humor aside this is a credible site run by TIA entitled "Truth in Accounting" and data (for Denver) is provided by Daniels College of Business University of Denver School of Accountancy. Here's the Denver specific page.

Out of 75 cities Denver comes in 47th. There are only 25 Sunshine Cites meaning a positive net worth. I also downloaded the full pdf of all cities. Denver gets a 'C' grade but understanding only Sunshine cites are rated 'A' or 'B that's not to bad. Coincidentally, Denver is tied with Phoenix with both cities in the upper third of Sinkhole Cites.

So why doesn't Denver rate higher?

Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden of $1.1 billion. That burden came to $4,300 for every city taxpayer.

Denver’s financial problems stem mostly from unfunded retirement obligations that have accumulated over the years

[DenverInfill]

Truth in Accounting.org is a right-wing anti-debt nonprofit that is part of the State Policy Network.

"The State Policy Network is a web of right-wing 'think tanks' and tax-exempt organizations... the tip of the spear of far-right, nationally funded policy agenda in the states that undergirds extremists in the Republican Party. Although SPN's member organizations claim to be nonpartisan and independent, the Center for Media and Democracy's in-depth investigation, "EXPOSED: The State Policy Network -- The Powerful Right-Wing Network Helping to Hijack State Politics and Government," reveals that SPN and its member think tanks are major drivers of the right-wing, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC)-backed corporate agenda in state houses nationwide, with deep ties to the Koch brothers and the national right-wing network of funders."

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Truth_in_Accounting

They cook their numbers by including in their government debt figures all future entitlement liabilities, such as pension plans, as if they are all due right now. Their entire premise is that all government debt is bad, even the good kind to build civic infrastructure.

The entire report is rubbish. You got hoodwinked again, TakeFive.

Any report that uses a "Sinkhole Cities" vs. "Sunshine Cities" methodology should be immediately suspect as click-bait at best, and at worst, anti-government right-wing propaganda.

By the way, Denver is legally bound to have no more that a 3% debt-to-valuation ratio. Denver's current debt-to-valuation is about 1.5%, and all of its bonds and credit ratings are in the A - AAA range.

Also, notice the bit about "Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden..."? Another lie. Every penny of Denver's debt has been approved by voters.

[TakeFive]

Appreciate the post; I always enjoy the opportunity to learn - but I have a few problems with all this.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Truth in Accounting.org is a right-wing anti-debt nonprofit that is part of the State Policy Network.

"The State Policy Network is a web of right-wing 'think tanks' and tax-exempt organizations...

Just as an aside I would consider myself fiscally conservative although I don't see any relevance to this and I'm definitely no right wing nut.

Other than the statement about Truth in Accounting being part of the "Network" I'm not finding any real connection to the State Policy Network. Is it that both are fiscally conservative and why is this necessarily some right wing conspiracy? Btw, while the name State Policy Network is new to me I'm certainly familiar with ALEC. You're talking about politics; I'm talking about accounting which in my mind is neither right or left.

Let's take it from the bottom up.

The School of Accountancy - Daniels College of Business

The School of Accountancy is one of only 194 accounting programs in the world accredited by the AACSB, widely regarded as the gold standard for business accreditation. We are proud to have received high rankings from Bloomberg Businessweek, the Princeton Review, and U.S. News and World Report.

None of these organizations are on the right; in fact I believe they all lean liberal.

As I like to proclaim statistics can lack for context; they don't talk. They can be cherry picked but that's mostly when correlation is used to assume causation or when certain data is intentionally overlooked and not included.

Are you seriously attacking the integrity of the Daniels College of Business School of Accountancy?

Or are you merely upset at TIA's sense of humor by using Sunshine Cities and Sinkhole cities? Does TIA have a conservative philosophy around debt? Yes, I can see that. I'm not sure that makes them a Right Wing crazy. Btw think tanks on either the right or left can be highly credible.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

By the way, Denver is legally bound to have no more that a 3% debt-to-valuation ratio. Denver's current debt-to-valuation is about 1.5%, and all of its bonds and credit ratings are in the A - AAA range.

Also, notice the bit about "Denver’s elected officials have repeatedly made financial decisions that left the city with a debt burden..."? Another lie. Every penny of Denver's debt has been approved by voters.

You liberals are touchy sensitive. Calling what they claim as a lie is bit presumptive. I didn't see anywhere that they said Denver's debt isn't approved by voters but I'm not sure that's entirely accurate either. In fact I'll bet you $'s to donuts that not every penny is voter approved.

Anyhow, there's always the ability to look at thing from a different angle and I already have a post in mind which will do just that.

[mhays]

Every word is from the OFFICIAL dictionary! Are you attacking the integrity of the DICTIONARY?!

[twalm]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

You liberals are touchy sensitive.

Get out if here with this. Denver Infill said absolutely nothing about the business collage, they just called you out for presenting cherry picked data so it doesn't matter where the data came from. Someone on this forum summed it up nicely:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

As I like to proclaim statistics can lack for context; they don't talk. They can be cherry picked but that's mostly when correlation is used to assume causation or when certain data is intentionally overlooked and not included.

[TakeFive]

A City that is rapidly growing would be derelict if it didn't invest in itself

One easy way to get a snapshot of the quality of a city's investment debt is by checking its Credit Ratings.

Official Statements and Credit Ratings Information

• General Obligation Bonds - This all-important debt has all been rated Triple A by all the Big Three credit rating agencies
• Wastewater Enterprise Revenue Bonds - Are rated Triple A by all three of the ratings agencies
• Tax Revenue Bonds for Colorado Convention Center and National Western Center - are rated AA- with Moody's rating of Double A-3
• Denver International Airport Bonds - are rated Double A for Senior debt and Single A for subordinate debt
• Certificates of Participation (Colorado Convention Center Expansion) - are rated Double A.

Of course credit ratings are merely (albeit important) judgment of the city's ability to repay the debt. It doesn't speak to the quality of the investments or resulting infrastructure.

Elevate Denver

Executing more than 460 projects over 10 years, this $937 million program will:

• Revitalize and modernize our streets and highways
• Increase pedestrian safety and accessibility
• Revitalize our parks, playgrounds and recreation centers
• Improve our libraries, cultural centers, safety facilities and the Denver Health

For those who followed the process it was the most involved undertaking combining public input and city agency priorities I can ever recall. It was roughly a 3-year process.

By demand over half of the investments ($431 million) were for transportation. IMO it was a nice balance between traditional, practical needs and multi-mobility priorities. For example, wanting to replace the bridge on Larimer Street between downtown and the Auraria campus, the replacement will be multi-moble.

All in all, I'm impressed with most of Denver's investments; I happen to be fond of the money invested to alleviate flood risk in the neighborhoods as one example.

--------------------------

In fact I'll bet you $'s to donuts that not every penny is voter approved.

From poking around it appears to me that wastewater and drainage investments and any debt are approved by the Denver City Council and not voters.

Since the original approval for construction of DIA any current spending/debt is approved by the Denver City Council.

Lastly, I'm not sure precisely how changes are made for funding retirement system obligations. but the Denver City Council gives their approval.

[TakeFive]

Point Taken

Originally Posted by twalm

Get out if here with this. Denver Infill said absolutely nothing about the business collage, they just called you out for presenting cherry picked data so it doesn't matter where the data came from. Someone on this forum summed it up nicely:

Dissenting opinions always welcomed.

With respect to DenverInfill I assume you're referring to Ken Schroeppel or "Ken" who created DenverInfill way back in 2004; it's an awesome site.

The one item of debt or city obligations that is more likely to be mentioned by Conservatives is Denver Employees Retirement Plan. Most of us ignore this. I wouldn't say it's wrong to consider but opinions likely vary as to its relevance. It's one of those things that's not a problem until it is.

Note: Investopedia suggests that retirement plan funding at an 80% level is decent and Denver is not far below that depending on gyrating market conditions.

[TakeFive]

Yet more affordable housing

KeyBank Provides $117M Financing for Two Affordable Housing Developments in Colorado
July 6, 2023 - Mile High CRE

KeyBank Community Development Lending and Investment (CDLI) recently provided $117.7 million of financing to Brinshore Development and Mile High Development, leading developers of affordable multifamily communities, for the construction of two properties in Colorado.

CDLI provided $56.9 million of financing to fund the new construction of Ralston Gardens Apartments, a 102-unit family project in Arvada, which will serve low-income families.

Northfield Flats is conveniently located within the Northfield retail complex in Central Park, Denver’s premier mixed-use master-planned community. The property is located directly adjacent to the Shops at Northfield, a retail, entertainment, and dining center.

There's been a number of new 'designated' affordable housing projects starting this year and a couple of market rate projects targeted towards being more affordable. All good of course.

Other than for a couple of new apartment projects in the Golden Triangle it seems like most new apartments breaking ground have been in suburban Denver. One at the old Kmart site off Monaco and Evans and another out near DIA.

[TakeFive]

Epilogue

Apparently I have a problem with acronyms

Originally Posted by mhays

Every word is from the OFFICIAL dictionary! Are you attacking the integrity of the DICTIONARY?!

Oops - the (big) mistake I made was to confuse TIA with TIAA. I see where TIA is affiliated with other conservative think tanks including the Tax Foundation.

I have another problem

I'm easily irritated when both the right and left use the popular fallacy of "Guilt by Association"

ALEC - for those who are unaware ALEC works with conservative legislators in attempting (sometimes successfully) to pass some of the most disgusting legislation in Red States.

Don't Shoot the Messenger - basically means attacking someone for their 'association' but ignoring the substance.

Back to Sunshine Cities and Sinkhole Cities

Among the the Sunshine Cites the Top Ten or best financially are:

Washington DC (1) - San Francisco (2) - Irvine (3) - Los Angeles (4) Fresno (5) - Long Beach (6) Tampa (7) - Aurora (8) - Charlotte (9) - Plano (10)

This just doesn't have the feel of dastardly conservative results to me.

Among the bottom feeders or Bottom Five are:

NYC and Chicago (and it's not even close) followed by Honolulu, Portland and New Orleans.

Storytime

In the last election Arizona managed to help elect Biden, a Dem governor and few other Dems in top offices. In her first year Governor Katie Hobbs has vetoed over a 100 bills. The legislature is still controlled by Republicans and the idiots have nothing better to do than pass stupid stuff that they know will be vetoed. Have I ever mentioned how stupid and silly politics can be? Gov Hobbs has managed to use Executive Orders to promote liberal basics (abortion etc). Who knows what the courts will do with these?

OTOH

When the previous Republican Governor lowered taxes each of his six years in office it didn't upset me. Why should it? The economy was en fuego so there was plenty of money to pay the bills and give taxpayers some relief. I may have tried but I just couldn't be offended by that.

[twalm]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Don't Shoot the Messenger - basically means attacking someone for their 'association' but ignoring the substance.

LMAO not really applicable here. You act as if you were a real messenger and had no choice but to deliver the message.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by twalm

LMAO not really applicable here. You act as if you were a real messenger and had no choice but to deliver the message.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking of myself as any messenger but I can see it hangs out there like a dangling participle. So we'll go with that and be content that you added some humor to your day.

[TakeFive]

Turning the Page

The Dorsey Apartments - 600 Park Ave W, Denver










All images courtesy Dorsey Apartments/Greystar

Other than a couple of units being ready more will become available August 1st and even more on Sept 1st. They will have co-working space as well as rentable office space. Initial incentives includes six weeks free rent and other benefits.

This project has had a long journey; the site was originally bought by a JV based in Kansas City in 2018 for $5.16 million. After entitlements were in place they sold the project to Greystar for $9.1 million retaining an equity interest.

[TakeFive]

Hot off the Press

With a world-class workforce and a booming economy, North Carolina repeats as America’s Top State for Business in 2023
JUL 11 2023 By Scott Cohn - CNBC

Rankings Here.

For my money these rankings are the best that's out there. This project started in 2007. No longer the darling but in a competitive world Colorado still comes in a respectable 11th. Instead of just reading the numbers I decided to dig down some.

First thing I realized is CNBC's analysis has a decided liberal tilt. For example, the 4th most important category is "Life, Health & Inclusion" at 14% with an emphasis on "inclusion" as it suggests let's just say that that most businesses are NOT fond of the cultural crap that conservatives obsess over.

For grins, I thought it would be fun to compare Colorado with Arizona and Washington so mhays could play along.

Starting with the most important, workforce is worth 16%

Colorado is rated 9th, Washington is 5th and Arizona is rated 3rd. They look at a the full spectrum of workers. They also consider 'talent migration.'

Next category is Infrastructure at 15.6%

Colorado is ranked 10th while Washington is 23rd and Arizona is ranked 7th. Think business and Seattle's great transit is not as important as Denver great airport. They also look at utility systems and renewable energy as part of the grid is a factor. Climate change risks are considered from wild fires to hurricanes etc. I can see why Colorado has a solid infrastructure ranking.

Last thing we'll look at is the Economy at 14.4%

Colorado comes in 32nd; Washington comes in 17th and Arizona comes is 15th. Not sure why Colorado is rated lower here. They do look at pension obligations and number of HQ's which Colorado doesn't excel at but I doubt either is that important.

Methodology is here.

Note: Arizona hasn't typically scored well on these ranking but they've been working hard to improve their business profile. This year's overall ranking of 14th is a jump from last year's 34th place. And starting this year AZ will have the lowest income tax rate among all states that have an income tax.

[bulldurhamer]

[QUOTE=TakeFive;9989717]Hot off the Press
how can the west continue to compete given the looming water and climate crises? we're going to be playing from behind on most fronts and there's no reason to think it's going to get better. combine all of that with astronomical housing costs and you have a dicey formula.

people are leaving colorado in droves at this point. it's going to take a miracle to turn this back around now given these constraints.

the dirty air, the wild fires, the melting snowcaps, and of course the lack of rain makes getting people to move tough. good thing the california escapees haven't caught on just how rough it's going to get. at least some folks are still coming in. you still have a chance to cash out on that colorado home yet!

[MovinOnUp]

LOL, really?

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by MovinOnUp

LOL, really?

To what are you referring?

[mhays]

The fast-increasing population is making people leave in droves!

[MovinOnUp]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

To what are you referring?

Sorry - mostly this: "people are leaving colorado in droves at this point. it's going to take a miracle to turn this back around now given these constraints."

... but really the whole post I guess.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

how can the west continue to compete given the looming water and climate crises? we're going to be playing from behind on most fronts and there's no reason to think it's going to get better.

Every projection and model points to the Mountain West being in much better shape than anywhere else in the country. Take a look at something like https://probablefutures.org/maps/?volume...&warming_scenario=1.5#4.37/38.44/-104.02 and play around with the numbers and map types. Almost everything points to the Rockies being slightly wetter overall, with a slight possibility of more drought but not as much change in temperature. SLC is going to have issues as the Great Salt Lake dries up, the further you go east from Denver the worse the weather will be, and the parts of Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona that are not mountainous will get hotter and much drier, but overall it isn't projected to be quite as bad here in the Mountain West as anywhere else.

It's the south and southwest that are going to be in real trouble - in fact insurers and lenders are already making adjustments or leaving (like the recent news out of Florida https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/insuranc...in-latest-blow-to-homeowners/ar-AA1dIVQo) Places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Austin, and Miami that are already unpleasantly hot in the summer are going to become nearly unlivable as time goes on. The fact that a lot of state governments are also doing nothing or actively planning against climate change will likely make their situation worse. It will be hard to maintain growth if the power grid breaks down every time the temperature crests 100 or you can't insure a house against flooding or storms. Phoenix and Las Vegas will likely have to resort to shenanigans to keep the taps flowing...

Water will certainly be a problem in any scenario if we continue without change. Those precious lawns and non-native trees will likely suffer and things like fracking and industrial usage will need a lot of change to stay viable... Now is definitely the time to become a water rights lawyer.

But you should definitely count on a future where we continue to have climate refugees.