O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Going to move this to a more relevant thread....



In any other city, the Trillium Corridor would be twin tracked and electrified and we wouldn't be having this discussion. The best solution to any moderate frequency urban or suburban rail corridor is electrification. Battery or fuel cells are at best a compromise solution. Full electrification has the lowest operating cost, the least disruption (no refuelling time, lower maintenance) and the highest reliability (fewer components and no novel technology).

Second to the above is battery-electric. And that's largely because there's no need to buildout a whole storage and distribution infrastructure, as you would have to for hydrogen. Installing charging gantries at the terminii is relatively easy. Hooking them up to the grid is not an issue.

Hydrogen fuel cells have a very specific application which really doesn't apply to the Trillium Line. Hydrogen fuel cells are great for long, low frequency routes where batteries can't provide enough range and the cost of electrification is not justified because of low frequency. If you want to run a train 95 km through the countryside, a few times a day, hydrogen fuel cells might make sense. A 24 km suburban rail line running 5-6 trains per hour in each direction? Full electrification or battery with charging at the terminii is more sensible.

Good Day.

Good choice , good move. Thx.

Twinned and electrified - the ultimate no brainer. Unfortunately, City keeps AVOIDING opportunities to even incrementally get there - Ellwood flyover, Heron and Walkley underpasses, Carling underpass, Carling trench all the way to the Dow's tunnel, Rideau River overpass, Hunt Club overpass , etc. - each providing an incremental opportunity as the moment comes (and goes). Yes, some of this would have been the Phase 2 stuff, but a lot could have been done before, and a lot could still be done since, if the desire is there, which I do not see being there. Even the Carling (Dow's Lake) station expansion is going to be a real B to everyone.

As for the interim - hydrogen or B-E..... as I noted before I have no numbers, but then that is what trials are supposed to be for. In the early days of a tech, which is what/when I had been pushing for when the iLint trains first came out, Alstom would have jumped at a trial opportunity in a location that was already exclusively Lint diesels. Limited - yes, but still useful. We would have been world first - the timing was right then and there. My opinion is that they would have bought the infrastructure for us to run the test, and 'loaned' us the trains at minimal cost (esp. with the bonus of involving a Canadian company product), just when the 'upgrade' to service was happening.
Work or not work would have been a conclusion of the trial, but everybody would have gotten numbers. Comparison to B-E would have been another matter - that tech has improved enormously in the past decade, so a different test now.

[Richard Eade]

Or, dare I ask, is it possible that the City does recognize that a Bank Street Subway would be useful, so is not spending a lot of money twinning and electrifying the northern portion of the Trillium Line?

If a subway does become 'a thing', then that would be, in my opinion, a better place to put money. If a lot of money is spent on the Trillium line now, then people will be more reluctant to build a parallel subway - further delaying the better project.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Or, dare I ask, is it possible that the City does recognize that a Bank Street Subway would be useful, so is not spending a lot of money twinning and electrifying the northern portion of the Trillium Line?

If a subway does become 'a thing', then that would be, in my opinion, a better place to put money. If a lot of money is spent on the Trillium line now, then people will be more reluctant to build a parallel subway - further delaying the better project.

We will need a new north south line at some point. Bayview and the Confederation Line can only handle son many transfers.

That said, double tracking the line to double the frequency over doubling the length of trains could have delayed that need further into the future. Easier to absorb 200 people every 6 minutes than 400 every 12.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

As for the interim - hydrogen or B-E..... as I noted before I have no numbers, but then that is what trials are supposed to be for. In the early days of a tech, which is what/when I had been pushing for when the iLint trains first came out, Alstom would have jumped at a trial opportunity in a location that was already exclusively Lint diesels. Limited - yes, but still useful. We would have been world first - the timing was right then and there. My opinion is that they would have bought the infrastructure for us to run the test, and 'loaned' us the trains at minimal cost (esp. with the bonus of involving a Canadian company product), just when the 'upgrade' to service was happening.
Work or not work would have been a conclusion of the trial, but everybody would have gotten numbers. Comparison to B-E would have been another matter - that tech has improved enormously in the past decade, so a different test now.

You keep saying you have no info and then proceed to make a lot of hard presumptions. And I do think it is driven by bias, as you've repeated the usual anti-EV line about mining harm of battery manufacturing (usually given by climate change deniers and minimizers who want to create a parallel to emissions concerns). There's a reason hydrogen fuel cells really haven't taken off. There's a reason it was ruled out for GO RER. And it's not because there's some shadowy cabal holding the tech back. It's simply expensive and overly complicated tech compared to the alternative. Converting electricity into hydrogen and then back into electricity will always be less efficient than just using that electricity, even if you're storing it in a battery. That's just physics.

As an experiment, if Alstom was willing to foot the entire bill of the rolling stock and fuel supply chain sure it's supportable. Other than that, I don't see why Ottawa should pay to be a Guinea pig. Bad enough we're the experiment for building metros using trams.

Other than tech fanning, what's the real value to Ottawa for running unproven technology here? I see no value. Diesel works fine. And in due course, if hydrogen or Battery-electric has a better business case we can retrofit.

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Or, dare I ask, is it possible that the City does recognize that a Bank Street Subway would be useful, so is not spending a lot of money twinning and electrifying the northern portion of the Trillium Line?

If a subway does become 'a thing', then that would be, in my opinion, a better place to put money. If a lot of money is spent on the Trillium line now, then people will be more reluctant to build a parallel subway - further delaying the better project.

The Bank St subway, if it even happens, is a long time away. The added cost of electrification of Trillium would probably have been recovered by then. There's substantial operating cost savings compared to diesel. Especially with an ever increasing carbon tax.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You keep saying you have no info and then proceed to make a lot of hard presumptions. And I do think it is driven by bias, as you've repeated the usual anti-EV line about mining harm of battery manufacturing (usually given by climate change deniers and minimizers who want to create a parallel to emissions concerns). There's a reason hydrogen fuel cells really haven't taken off. There's a reason it was ruled out for GO RER. And it's not because there's some shadowy cabal holding the tech back. It's simply expensive and overly complicated tech compared to the alternative. Converting electricity into hydrogen and then back into electricity will always be less efficient than just using that electricity, even if you're storing it in a battery. That's just physics.

As an experiment, if Alstom was willing to foot the entire bill of the rolling stock and fuel supply chain sure it's supportable. Other than that, I don't see why Ottawa should pay to be a Guinea pig. Bad enough we're the experiment for building metros using trams.

Other than tech fanning, what's the real value to Ottawa for running unproven technology here? I see no value. Diesel works fine. And in due course, if hydrogen or Battery-electric has a better business case we can retrofit.



The Bank St subway, if it even happens, is a long time away. The added cost of electrification of Trillium would probably have been recovered by then. There's substantial operating cost savings compared to diesel. Especially with an ever increasing carbon tax.

Good Day.

The usual anti-EV line is usual because the tech is not low impact - only extremely minimized, both in production and in the yet-to-be recycling.
And, right or wrong, it is an extremely widely held viewpoint that the EV industry has yet to properly overcome.
I repeatedly emphasize that I have no numbers so as to be sure everyone understands that, and does not therefore be led astray.

As for Alstom..... that and my points was then. It certainly is different now.
Does not change that we could have been there for tests and trials.

Anywha.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

The usual anti-EV line is usual because the tech is not low impact - only extremely minimized, both in production and in the yet-to-be recycling.
And, right or wrong, it is an extremely widely held viewpoint that the EV industry has yet to properly overcome.

There's no manufactured product that is no impact. The only question is impact relative to others. In this case, it's disingenuous to talk about the impact of batteries while not considering the impact of oil mined to make diesel or fracking to get the natural gas used to make hydrogen or the similar impact of resource extraction needed to make the fuel cells themselves. You can say that hydrogen could be made from electrolysis. But this incurs substantial extra infrastructure cost. The reality is that over 90% of hydrogen is made from fossil fuels.

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

I repeatedly emphasize that I have no numbers so as to be sure everyone understands that, and does not therefore be led astray.

That doesn't absolve you of making unsubstantiated claims.

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

As for Alstom..... that and my points was then. It certainly is different now.
Does not change that we could have been there for tests and trials.

Anywha.....

Again. Why should Ottawa be a test bed for this? You're talking about experimenting with one of two transit lines in the city. And it's not like the other one is high reliability. What exactly is in it for the the taxpayers and the transit riders of this city?

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I find a lot of the transit discussion on skyscraperpage has moved over the Rail Fans Canada discord. A lot less discussion on here now.

Could I get an invite to that discord please?

[Psychedelic Sailor]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

Could I get an invite to that discord please?

https://discord.gg/Dufrx8Rv

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by Psychedelic Sailor

https://discord.gg/Dufrx8Rv

Thank you sir

[Kitchissippi]

The San Bernardino-Redlands Arrow is almost like the Trillium Line's California cousin. Built on an old rail line and serves a university. Their frequency really 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 though.

• Video Link

[J.OT13]

• Video Link

[OTSkyline]

Nice update. Has the city been providing updates on line 2's progress? When is the projected completion date? How long do they need to test (since it was already a functioning line pre-expansion) and when is the projected opening date?

I believe opening date said Fall 2023?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Nice update. Has the city been providing updates on line 2's progress? When is the projected completion date? How long do they need to test (since it was already a functioning line pre-expansion) and when is the projected opening date?

I believe opening date said Fall 2023?

Latest update from May 26.

"We are still waiting to see the performance of the train across the entire network through August and September to give us a good sense of, is it highly reliable? What is our confidence level with the system? Is it ready to go?"

"The timeline is still to aim for third week of September for trial running and first or second week of October for handover. If the reliability of the train in August and September than we will tend to lean to opening the system sooner rather than later. If we start to see challenges in August and September, then we will push the date out."

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/proof-is-in-th...opening-date-for-trillium-line-1.6415252

[zzptichka]

Is it really necessary to make this track at CarletonU station to get to/from Northbound platform? Yikes.
I know it's been like that forever, but why not shorten it while we are at it.

[Kitchissippi]

I’d like to know who is paying for that footbridge to nowhere at Bayview now that Trinity is out of the picture.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I’d like to know who is paying for that footbridge to nowhere at Bayview now that Trinity is out of the picture.

Same, did Trinity 'sell' it as part of their bowing out, take the loss, or convince the city to buy it? Honestly just curious.

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Is it really necessary to make this track at CarletonU station to get to/from Northbound platform? Yikes.
I know it's been like that forever, but why not shorten it while we are at it.

Short-term I think they want to cut 10 or so parking spaces to make the path along the parking lot wider and not as much of a turn.

Long-term I think Carleton wants to make Campus ave pedestrian (aside from emergency and service vehicles) and then make a bus loop where that parking lot is. They also mark the parking lot as a potential building in the future on their master plan.

I would always just walk through the parking lot to save a tiny bit of time.

[Kitchissippi]

Interesting how the tracks separate out like they’re leading to a centre platform station, and then bam, disappointment. The station looks so temporary and the track spacing has enough space for columns in between that it makes me wonder if the intention is to build over the track a building that spans from Campus Ave to University Dr incorporating the station. Maybe when the line is eventually electrified? Diesel engines and enclosed stations aren’t exactly a good combination

[phil235]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Is it really necessary to make this track at CarletonU station to get to/from Northbound platform? Yikes.
I know it's been like that forever, but why not shorten it while we are at it.

I assume that the length is required to get the appropriate grade on the approaches for accessibility. Same as with the canal footbridges.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Is it really necessary to make this track at CarletonU station to get to/from Northbound platform? Yikes.
I know it's been like that forever, but why not shorten it while we are at it.

Seriously, though. It's like the people who design transit don't take transit. Or walk.

Also: the pathetic little shelters.