Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

So I have used several subway systems around the world: Japan, London England and China. In eac case, you tapped your card to access the platforms for train boarding and when you leave the stations at your final destination, you tap your card again.

Here in Ottawa, they dint do that.

From my way of thinking, would it not be better to tap at both ends of your trip? The biggest advantage to doing so would be to provide better data on trips so you could plan things better…. Maybe I am just naive here?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Zone fares in those bigger cities?

I hope in my lifetime that we will have regular transit running from Kemptville, Smiths Falls, Carleton Place, Almonte, Arnprior, Casselman (via Embrun, Russell, Metcalfe, Greely), and Rockland.

Don't know about those other cities, but Vancouver has tap in, tap out due to zone fares. For sure, it's also great for origin/destination stats.

Don't know if there's a counter for every time the gates in Ottawa open when someone exits. I would hope so.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Zone fares in those bigger cities?

I hope in my lifetime that we will have regular transit running from Kemptville, Smiths Falls, Carleton Place, Almonte, Arnprior, Casselman (via Embrun, Russell, Metcalfe, Greely), and Rockland.

There's no need to build tap in/tap out to serve those remote communities. They are all going to be remote bus services. Can easily be done with a fare surcharge when boarding.

Most places with zoned fares still have some kind of fixed fare for bus routes. The zones are usually for rail services. And the towns mentioned aren't going to be seeing regular rail transit in our lifetimes.

[Richard Eade]

Unless you need to know the distance traveled immediately (say, to charge the correct fare based on zones traveled) there should be no need to tap OUT. Most people will start their return trip very close to where they disembarked their earlier bus (maybe just across the street). If OC Transpo has access to the raw data (and I don’t know if they do, since it is a PRESTO thing), they could probably write some software to pair trip origins, based on matching Presto numbers. That is, if card 123XXX456 tapped IN in the morning at a stop on Longfields in Barrhaven, and then next tapped IN on Teron in Kanata in the afternoon, it would be a good bet that those are the endpoints – i.e., you have the O-D data.

[Jay31]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

It’s truly great to hear about the O-Train’s success last night. But I wonder if there’s a bigger issue with our expectations as a city being drastically too high. Many people were reporting less than 10mins between leaving Bluesfest to getting on a train. That’s obviously insanely impressive and I applaud the staff who made it happen. However, I wonder if the reaction would’ve been as positive had the wait to get into the station been longer. Going back to my trusty Montreal example, for events at Jean Drapeau like the grand prix or osheaga, it’s often 45-60 min to get on a train from the time you get in line, usually about 50m-100m back of the station entrance itself. In Montreal, people still applaud the metro for moving so many people in “short” order, but I have a feeling the exact same scenario in Ottawa would be called a disaster. I think it goes back to that stereotype of our city’s somewhat entitled culture where any inconvenience is seen as a failure. Hate to be that guy who’s still finding negatives after a success story (in fact, kind of hypocritical considering the topic of my post) but it’s really been on my mind.

I also think there's an aspect of people in Ottawa just hating on public transit as a bit of a past time...or generally not having a culture of common public transit use. It's a minority of people in Ottawa that depend on transit daily (poor, students, seniors, etc) vs Montreal, where I suspect it's much more common to take transit to work. I think many in Ottawa view it as a pure cost to be lowered rather than a public necessity (hence why Sutcliffe used the straw man of 'free transit' as something to fight against). The LRT's issues haven't helped, but its reliability has improved a lot and any issue (or even hypothetical issues in the case of the Pimisi story) gets magnified by local news into the continued narrative of public transit being a disaster.

I agree that that a post Grand Prix like experience in Ottawa would be labelled a disaster. Even though by any measure, the post Sens game experience at CTC is largely comparable in terms of wait time with a fraction of the crowd size (20k at CTC vs over 100k at the grand prix), only you're stuck in grid lock inside your car rather than waiting in a crowd of people. I suspect taking the O-Train after a game at Lebreton would be a breeze in comparison, but as I said earlier, I think many in Ottawa would still prefer to sit in gridlock.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fortunately now that Glen Gower is transit chair, we actually have someone in charge who uses transit (at least on the council side of things).

That should help.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fortunately now that Glen Gower is transit chair, we actually have someone in charge who uses transit (at least on the council side of things).

How Hubley kept his position as Chair for so long is a mystery. I get that Watson wanted a yes man at the head of the transit commission, but he had ten other options, a few of them actually used transit on occasion.

[skyscraperaccount]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That should help.

Isn't Gower the one throwing wrenches at stage 3? https://www.glengower.ca/notebook/its-ti...of-transit-to-barrhaven-and-stittsville/

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by skyscraperaccount

Isn't Gower the one throwing wrenches at stage 3? https://www.glengower.ca/notebook/its-ti...of-transit-to-barrhaven-and-stittsville/

I don't disagree with Gower on this one. Stage 3 is highly commuter dependant, and with the drop in commuter ridership, it may not be worth investing upwards if $8B to convert a functional bus system.

If the money was available now and we could start construction within a year, I'd say go for it, but realisticly were still 4 years away.

That said, I still think it's worth building to Eagleson and Fallowfield at the very least. Maybe even to Palladium depending on redevelopment plans.

Any other capital spending should focus on current BRT plans (quick and relatively cheap) and permanent solutions to the unreliable, but high ridership, urban routes.

[DTcrawler]

On one hand I think the money for Stage 3 to Kanata and/or Barrhaven could be much better used elsewhere (e.g. Baseline BRT, Carling LRT/BRT, Bank bus priority, etc.). On the other hand, maybe bringing O-Train to the suburbs will be the catalyst we need to spur widespread transit adoption, which will in turn help us build the support needed for future transit improvements in the core. That being said, I don’t want to see any extensions go past Terry Fox and BTC in Kanata and Barrhaven, respectively.

[SidetrackedSue]

I would love fare zones in Ottawa once we get Stage 2 up and running.

Currently, costs us more to take transit from Westboro to the OLT than to drive down and pay for parking. And it takes over 2x as long.

Before the LRT, my record for getting home from the NAC after a performance was 30 minutes after standing up to put on my coat at my seat. Now it is much longer because it is no longer one bus, but train (which includes the time to get down to the platform) and transfer to the bus (which includes a 2 -4 minute walk to our stop at Tunneys.) All that extra time eats into transit's advantage of not having to wait to get out of the NAC garage. If the cost is still cheaper to drive (it was pre-pandemic), then convenience (I get to leave my coat and boots in the car), time spent going to/from, and cost mean driving is the logical choice.

The fact that it will cost me the same amount to take transit as someone taking the train from Orleans is just more salt in the wound.

So many times when I'm struggling to walk, I limp past bus stops because I'd rather take the time and pain to get home than pay $3.70 for a 500m trip. And I don't shop locally as much as I would if I could walk there and bus home without it costing $3.70 more than driving to a mall or everything store and doing my shopping there.

[acottawa]

I am not opposed to fare zones, but I am not clear what problem they solve. Does the cost of operating the system vary based on crossing arbitrary lines on a map?

The least efficient part of the transit system is the last mile to access low density neighborhoods, so fare zones would not discourage inefficiency.

I would rather see congestion pricing.

[skyscraperaccount]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not opposed to fare zones, but I am not clear what problem they solve. Does the cost of operating the system vary based on crossing arbitrary lines on a map?

The least efficient part of the transit system is the last mile to access low density neighborhoods, so fare zones would not discourage inefficiency.

I would rather see congestion pricing.

Yep...the problem is the existance of cheap and accessible downtown parking not the fares on public transit (in this use case). Triple the cost of downtown parking and see it the same comment would be made.

[Richard Eade]

I went to the NAC recently. I drove and parked, the short walk away, under the City Hall. The cost for evening/week-end/holiday parking is $2. (World Exchange Plaza is no longer 'free' on week-ends.) The bus can't beat that cost. Nor can it beat, or even come close to, the travel time - even with the 21 minute line-up to get out of the parking lot.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I went to the NAC recently. I drove and parked, the short walk away, under the City Hall. The cost for evening/week-end/holiday parking is $2. (World Exchange Plaza is no longer 'free' on week-ends.) The bus can't beat that cost. Nor can it beat, or even come close to, the travel time - even with the 21 minute line-up to get out of the parking lot.

But there is also no reason the city should prefer that you take transit. Roads and downtown parking are underutilized in the evening.

[originalmuffins]

The benefits we gain by going the full way of Stage 3 is way beyond what we're investing. We stop sprawl and the plans around those nodes and cores are happening because of the prospect / plan of Stage 3. Take that away, and our sprawl will continue the same way we are seeing it. It makes way more sense to future plan, otherwise we'll continue to play catch-up instead.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

On one hand I think the money for Stage 3 to Kanata and/or Barrhaven could be much better used elsewhere (e.g. Baseline BRT, Carling LRT/BRT, Bank bus priority, etc.). On the other hand, maybe bringing O-Train to the suburbs will be the catalyst we need to spur widespread transit adoption, which will in turn help us build the support needed for future transit improvements in the core. That being said, I don’t want to see any extensions go past Terry Fox and BTC in Kanata and Barrhaven, respectively.

Lots of benefits to keeping it to Terry Fox and BTC. It shouldn't go beyond either of those anyways, but the widespread adoption will be there. Plus, if we do end up saying no to Stage 3 like Gower says, we are definitely not getting anything remotely close to transit improvement anytime soon.

What we will get is studies. And more of them, for atleast another 5 years. The studies are done on these, we gain a lot of benefit with finalizing Stage 3.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But there is also no reason the city should prefer that you take transit. Roads and downtown parking are underutilized in the evening.

Hmmm. . . . What an interesting take on this.

The public transit system is also underutilized in the evenings. And, I’m pretty sure that the City would prefer to get fewer complaints about empty buses running around. Remember, OC Transpo still needs to run a ‘reasonable’ transit system because there are people who have no other choice. So, I would thing that the City would prefer to get $3.70 towards the cost of transit over the $2.00 that they get from me parking.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Hmmm. . . . What an interesting take on this.

The public transit system is also underutilized in the evenings. And, I’m pretty sure that the City would prefer to get fewer complaints about empty buses running around. Remember, OC Transpo still needs to run a ‘reasonable’ transit system because there are people who have no other choice. So, I would thing that the City would prefer to get $3.70 towards the cost of transit over the $2.00 that they get from me parking.

That’s true, but a “reasonable” transit service to provide service for a captive audience in the evening and a service robust enough to lure middle class people out of their cars for an evening at the theatre are at a considerable cost difference.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

The benefits we gain by going the full way of Stage 3 is way beyond what we're investing. We stop sprawl and the plans around those nodes and cores are happening because of the prospect / plan of Stage 3. Take that away, and our sprawl will continue the same way we are seeing it. It makes way more sense to future plan, otherwise we'll continue to play catch-up instead.

The same market forced that drive sprawl now are unlikely to be affected by phase 3. At current rates of development it will take decades to use up the available TOD spaces for phase 1 and 2.

And travel times for phase 3 would get pretty ridiculous.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The same market forced that drive sprawl now are unlikely to be affected by phase 3. At current rates of development it will take decades to use up the available TOD spaces for phase 1 and 2.

And travel times for phase 3 would get pretty ridiculous.

A flawed transit plan?

Nevertheless, TOD located next to the Queensway will take decades to be fully built out. Meanwhile, intensification will continue in other more desirable locations, where transit will continue to be second or even third rate.