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[JSsocal]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's pretty obvious that the ASTM plan is a front for MSG. MSG has been bankrolling this effort, behind the scenes, which became obvious to the MTA early this year. NY Times should really be focusing on this. Smaller, local publications have noted that ASTM has admitted, in public presentations, that they've worked together, but they refused to offer more details.

The ASTM plan sucks primarily bc it makes MSG permanent. Which is the entire point. This is a a roundabout way of keeping MSG there forever. It removes any hope of redeveloping the block. It also doesn't really work well with Penn South. Hard pass.

And MSG is not permanent in the MTA proposal? They're equal in that regard. These proposals are not stop gap measures until the site can be redeveloped, they cost in the neighborhood of $7 billion dollars each

I don't get the animosity for one over the other- they are remarkably similar. Very similar concourses, entrances/exits, even plan to surround the garden with an above ground pavilion enveloping the garden. The garden is not leaving any time soon, its drum might be there perpetually .

Have a look at PAU's palimpsest proposal, if the garden decides to leave in 40 years, that can be in our future, and that would be something else..

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JSsocal

And MSG is not permanent in the MTA proposal?

Correct. The MTA proposal has no MSG involvement, sits on a completely different site, integrates with Penn South and Vornado plans, orients towards 7th Ave., not 8th. Ave., and doesn't preclude any future option re. MSG.

Originally Posted by JSsocal

They're equal in that regard. These proposals are not stop gap measures until the site can be redeveloped, they cost in the neighborhood of $7 billion dollars each

I have no idea what this means. The MTA proposal obviously isn't a "stopgap measure" and neither is the MSG proposal. The new concourse will likely be here in 50-100 years regardless. Again, the MTA proposal has nothing to do with MSG, whatever happens with MSG. It's adjacent to MSG, not within MSG.

Originally Posted by JSsocal

I don't get the animosity for one over the other- they are remarkably similar.

How are they "remarkably similar" when one is in MSG and one isn't? That's like saying that JFK and LAX are "remarkably similar" in that they're both airports; who cares they're in different locations.

Originally Posted by JSsocal

The garden is not leaving any time soon, its drum might be there perpetually .

You have no idea if this is true or not, and regardless, irrelevant. The MSG proposal isn't happening. This is the 4th MSG and highly unlikely to be the last, and whatever happens, the MTA is driving this train, not MSG. Penn Station will be redeveloped according to regional transit needs, not according to James Dolan's needs.

[JSsocal]

Let's not get condescending in tone, I think you misunderstand some of what's happening here.

Both proposals require land swaps with the garden, look at the MTA's renders, they are also planning to envelope the garden with a pavilion, with new street retail and corner entrances. A roof deck for the garden is shown on top of the pavilion in both proposals. These buildings will be wed to eachother very closely when this is said and done- in either scenario. (Moreso in the ASTM plan, to be sure).

Both have the midblock concourse & atrium in the exact same place (connecting to penn south in the exact same ways). ASTM was designed to fit into the general project plan for the area. These proposals enhance the connection to 7th avenue in the same way, with a widened concourse connecting to the 123. Improvements outside the station itself will probably be handled by sites as they are redeveloped (chiefly by Vornado). This part is a little unclear after Hochul's announcement this week.

The MTA's atrium is better, since they plan to demolish and rebuild the bridge to the garden. There is currently mechanical equipment on the roof of the bridge that will need to be relocated to the roof of the new Penn station pavilion that wraps the garden. ASTM prioritizes the 8th avenue entrance instead.

Do look at the layering gif on PAU's website, it is helpful in grasping the extents of their plan.
https://pau.studio/what/new-new-york-penn/

Real question, why are you so clearly angry at the ASTM proposal? It's introduction has only strengthened the MTA's proposal, and is steering it towards a better project. What is your long term desire for penn station/the garden? This isn't James Dolan's proposal here. I bet MSG would prefer not to have a new pavilion wrapping their arena so they'd have the option to build a new garden here in the future. They publicly have shown that they would prefer not to move - ever, since they are pushing for a perpetual extension to their operating license here.

Personally I like that the ASTM proposal reintroduces the idea that Penn Station is a building, and not a canopy entrance to a subterranean concourse. I think if the garden ever does move then they can hollow out the drum and make an incredible interior public space (This could happen in either plan really), and if not the interior spaces here are nothing to laugh at.

I think the MTA's plan has really come into focus and is also great and promising, their mid block concourse would be on a truly grand scale. I think it leaves something to be desired at street level right now, and like NYguy has suggested, integrating the facade of the garden into the station will make for a much better composition.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by JSsocal

And MSG is not permanent in the MTA proposal? They're equal in that regard. These proposals are not stop gap measures until the site can be redeveloped, they cost in the neighborhood of $7 billion dollars each

I don't get the animosity for one over the other- they are remarkably similar. Very similar concourses, entrances/exits, even plan to surround the garden with an above ground pavilion enveloping the garden. The garden is not leaving any time soon, its drum might be there perpetually .

Have a look at PAU's palimpsest proposal, if the garden decides to leave in 40 years, that can be in our future, and that would be something else..

Originally Posted by JSsocal

Let's not get condescending in tone, I think you misunderstand some of what's happening here.

Both proposals require land swaps with the garden, look at the MTA's renders, they are also planning to envelope the garden with a pavilion, with new street retail and corner entrances. A roof deck for the garden is shown on top of the pavilion in both proposals. These buildings will be wed to eachother very closely when this is said and done- in either scenario. (Moreso in the ASTM plan, to be sure).

Both have the midblock concourse & atrium in the exact same place (connecting to penn south in the exact same ways). ASTM was designed to fit into the general project plan for the area. These proposals enhance the connection to 7th avenue in the same way, with a widened concourse connecting to the 123. Improvements outside the station itself will probably be handled by sites as they are redeveloped (chiefly by Vornado). This part is a little unclear after Hochul's announcement this week.

The MTA's atrium is better, since they plan to demolish and rebuild the bridge to the garden. There is currently mechanical equipment on the roof of the bridge that will need to be relocated to the roof of the new Penn station pavilion that wraps the garden. ASTM prioritizes the 8th avenue entrance instead.

The plans are actually very similar, the largest difference in being the extent to which the 8th Avenue entrance is reworked, and the more open midblock corridor/atrium in the MTA plan.


This is what the MTA is asking of MSG, which is not too different from what is currently before the City as the permit is being reworked...



This is why the MTA isn't for going all out on a grand new entrance at 8th Avenue...






The MTA is focusing more on opening the station up for circulation and unifying the upper and lower levels. You can see that the upper level 8th Avenue concourse isn't as open as the other proposal, but it is open.











The MTA wants to make changes to the loading plan at MSG







The MTA also wants to make changes to 8th Avenue, but doesn't go as far as the alternative plan...





Note that there is no new "grand" entrance









The entrance in the alternative plan






This is basically what the MTA wants from MSG







Meanwhile, these are the changes currently before City Planning...

[NYguy]

Meanwhile, who wouldn't want to listen to this?


• Video Link



• Video Link

[Zapatan]

So basically to sum up recent events, the state will no longer be involved so there will be fewer towers overall but Vornado wants to design a huge one (a signature tower it seems) near Penn Station.

That's actually cool I guess... I hope it'll compliment 15 Penn well.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

So basically to sum up recent events, the state will no longer be involved so there will be fewer towers overall but Vornado wants to design a huge one (a signature tower it seems) near Penn Station.

I don't know how you came up with that from what's been posted. Everything you said is wrong.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by NYguy

I don't know how you came up with that from what's been posted. Everything you said is wrong.

Hochul drops Vornado from Penn Station plan on eve of ASTM's rival bid

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/transporta...penn-station-plan-spurns-astms-rival-bid




Or this, sounds like the skyscrapers are out of this plan as of recent, at least for now.

https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-nyc/office-towers-nixed-penn-plan-gov-kicks-redesign-process

[Zapatan]

To clarify, I meant the state is no longer behind the office towers (the thread title mentions the nine towers). I wasn't referring to the station (which is great because it badly needs redevelopment).

I wonder what the timeframe for private developers (like Vornado) will be for any office towers in the area.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Hochul drops Vornado from Penn Station plan on eve of ASTM's rival bid

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/transporta...penn-station-plan-spurns-astms-rival-bid




Or this, sounds like the skyscrapers are out of this plan as of recent, at least for now.

https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-nyc/office-towers-nixed-penn-plan-gov-kicks-redesign-process

Originally Posted by Zapatan

To clarify, I meant the state is no longer behind the office towers (the thread title mentions the nine towers). I wasn't referring to the station (which is great because it badly needs redevelopment).

I wonder what the timeframe for private developers (like Vornado) will be for any office towers in the area.

You're still misguided. All of this was discussed here, and explained at length.

[NYguy]

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.c...igns-for-nycs-penn-station-rebuild/61635

Gov. Hochul Tells Architects to Proceed With Designs for NYC's Penn Station Rebuild


JULY 05, 2023

At a recent press conference, Hochul revealed that her office had given the "notice to proceed" on preliminary design to improve Penn Station to the design team of FXCollaborative Architects LLP, WSP USA Inc., both based in the city, and the British architecture firm John McAslan + Partners.

Since announcing that group's award for the design last September, the last 10 months have been spent finalizing a "design governance agreement" among the three railroad agencies that use the station: the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), Amtrak and NJ Transit.

Nearly a year ago, many of the same officials gathered to announce the Penn Station design process, including Gov. Phil Murphy, but at Hochul's recent announcement, the New Jersey governor was not in attendance as the congestion pricing controversy heightened between the two states.

"New Jersey has made no commitment beyond conceptual design as presented last summer," a Murphy spokesperson said, and is open to all options on the drawing board, particularly those that best fuse Penn Station's renovations with future plans to expand the station.

.....Hochul explained that the design for Penn Station's renovation is no longer dependent on a prior controversial plan that hinged improvements — and their funding — on real estate developments going up around the station, with as many as eight new skyscrapers.

Instead, she said construction of new office, retail and residential space could take place sometime in the future, but for now, the focus is on the commuter experience.

The FX Collaborative, WSP and John McAslan group was chosen through a competitive process last year for a base contract of $57.9 million to do preliminary designs of the station. That cost is being split equally between the three railroad agencies involved.

Their work of the designers and engineers will build on the MTA Penn Station master planning effort that took place in consultation with Amtrak and NJ Transit, the former being the landlord of the station and the latter being the only other transit user of the station after Amtrak moved its operations next door to Moynihan Train Hall.

The estimated $7 billion vision would focus on the eastern side of the station toward Seventh Avenue — where some 70 percent of foot traffic is concentrated — with the centerpiece being a glassy greenhouse-looking archway known as the mid-block train hall.

Among the points of contention are figuring out how MSG will be involved in these improvements, including whether the Hulu Theater on Eighth Avenue should be dismantled and whether MSG should help fund the construction costs for renovation.

The MTA is leaning toward leaving MSG's Hulu Theater untouched but building a sloped glass frame around the Eighth Avenue side of Penn Station with improved entrances on the corners of the structure along that street.

"There are different ideas and we're going to look at all of them," said Janno Lieber, head of the MTA. "Whatever we do, the Eighth Avenue experience on Penn can and will be changed, even if you don't take out the Hulu Theater."

Meanwhile, ASTM North America, a Nanuet, N.Y., design and architecture firm, has stacked its team with Pat Foye, the former head of the MTA, and Vishaan Chakrabarti, an architect who has been involved in Penn Station plans for decades, including for the Bloomberg administration.

That company has proposed a fundamentally different vision for Penn Station that focuses more on the Eighth Avenue side where they anticipate more growth from Hudson Yards development. This design team would take out the Hulu Theater and replace it with a grand, avenue-centered entrance using classical stone rectangular-looking columns.

ASTM also proposed a model where it would operate and maintain the facility for 50 years, receiving "availability payments" from the three railroads, or roughly $250 million annually with a return on ASTM's upfront equity between 8 percent and 11 percent. There would be no upfront cost for New Jersey; rather, payments would begin once construction begins to pay back the federal loans and return on equity.

John McCarthy, an MTA spokesperson, said the agency has not been presented with a detailed report of ASTM's cost estimates for their proposal.

"If ASTM is able to deliver the project at a lower cost than our estimate, we would welcome their proposal when we competitively solicit bids from design teams at the conclusion of the preliminary design phase now underway," he said in a statement.

For now, the FX collaboration team is expected to deliver 30 percent of the design before the end of 2023. After that, the MTA will put out another solicitation for bids to do final design and construction, which ASTM will be eligible to compete for. This leaves the door open to ideas outside of those envisioned by the FX team.

Other issues that will need to be addressed include how changes to Penn Station will account for potential expansion of the station to the south with proposed new tracks that would connect to the two new Gateway tunnels that are in the early phases of construction and near a federal grant agreement.

[NYguy]

Things are falling into place…


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/nyregion/nyc-penn-station-tunnel-gateway.html

Hudson Tunnel Project to Get $6.9 Billion in Largest U.S. Transit Grant
The federal funding would allow work on the long-delayed Gateway tunnel to start by next year, said Senator Chuck Schumer of New York.


By Patrick McGeehan
July 6, 2023

The federal government is on track to give $6.88 billion, the most ever awarded to a mass-transit project, for the construction of a second rail tunnel under the Hudson River to New York City, Senator Chuck Schumer said Wednesday.

The two-tube tunnel is part of Gateway, a massive infrastructure project that is widely considered the most important in the country. The new tunnel would supplement a troublesome pair of single-track tunnels that opened in 1910 and have been steadily deteriorating since Hurricane Sandy flooded them with salt water in 2012.

The federal pledge will allow Gateway’s planners to start seeking companies to construct a tunnel parallel to the deteriorating ones, a project that is expected to cost more than $16 billion before it is completed in 2035.

The governors of New York and New Jersey agreed last year to an even split of the local share of the cost of building the tunnel. That agreement was a critical precursor to obtaining federal funding for the project. But a signed deal with the federal government is not expected until early next year.

….. transportation officials say that the tunnel is urgently needed because the existing tunnels must be cured of the lingering effects of their inundation by Hurricane Sandy. Amtrak, which owns the tunnels, plans to shut those tracks for repairs, one at a time, once the new tunnel is in use.

If one of the existing tracks had to be closed before the new tunnel is available, train capacity between Penn Station and places west of the Hudson would be cut by 75 percent during rush hours, according to Amtrak. Mr. Schumer and other elected officials said that reduction would sharply curtail commercial activity along the East Coast and could devastate the American economy.

“The Gateway program is an essential economic engine for New York and the nation,” said Kathy Hochul, the Democratic governor of New York, in a statement.

Beleaguered commuters in the New York region may think they have heard this all before. Two decades ago, a different project to build a train tunnel under the Hudson received a $3 billion commitment from the Federal Transit Administration.

Construction of that tunnel, known as ARC, began in 2009. But a year later, Chris Christie, then the Republican governor of New Jersey, canceled the $8.7 billion project, saying that his state could not afford the potential cost overruns. Afterward, New Jersey repaid $95 million of the $271 million the federal government had provided.
Kris Kolluri, chief executive of the Gateway Development Commission, said he was confident that construction of the tunnel would begin next year and that there would be no stopping it this time.

“I have never seen this level of cooperation,” he said. “There’s no daylight between the state, local and federal partners.”

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by NYguy

You're still misguided. All of this was discussed here, and explained at length.

How so? Unless of course these articles are just made up.

I don't have time to read 50 articles so sure, you know more than me if you do, but it was reported the towers will likely be no more. That was my point.

The biggest change is that the Penn Station Master Plan, the name of the station redesign project, is being "decoupled" from the larger Vornado development project of 10 huge skyscrapers that would have helped subsidize the station.

Many criticized the plan, calling it a handout to the deep-pocketed developers that would have destroyed the surrounding neighborhood. Today's announcement included Hochul conceding that while the demand is not currently there to support the construction of the towers, the full redevelopment plan could proceed in the future.

What is not entirely clear is where the $7 billion to pay for the redesign will come from now that the big office towers are out of the picture for now.

Hochul said that the state is already committed to spending at least $1.3 billion and is applying for various federal funding as well. But the lack of totally secured funding, she said, can't hold up the process.

Check the thread at SSC too, they said the same thing on the last page

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/n...x-5-1300ft-1018ft-x-5-pro.2181050/page-2

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

How so? Unless of course these articles are just made up.

I don't have time to read 50 articles so sure, you know more than me if you do, but it was reported the towers will likely be no more. That was my point.

Well, if you don't have time to read, then you shouldn't be commenting. It's that simple. Either you want to follow what's going on, or you don't. It's not as if we haven't been discussing this whole development since it was first proposed.

But, nice guy that I am, I will break it down one more time:


- This particular thread is about the redevelopment of the Penn Station district. What that entails is the expansion south of Penn Station to accommodate more tracks and platforms (which will go hand in hand with Gateway). The result of that expansion will be 4-5 towers built above the expansion, with the tax revenue that would normally go to the city going instead to help pay for the expansion and improvements to Penn for a number of years.

- The expansion south is currently undergoing a federal environmental review. Under the review, they are studying 3 options for the expansion. North, south, and underneath the current station. This is all done before they can officially designate the expansion south as the "preferred" direction and that can begin to move forward.

- It also entails connecting the existing Penn to the surrounding neighborhood, with a number of those properties already being developed into 5 towers by Vornado. The tax revenue from those towers would also go to help pay for the expansion and improvements to Penn instead of directly to the City itself for a number of years. These improvements also include connections from Penn to Herald Square, which would connect the PATH and a number of subway lines directly to Penn Station.


Now, the part where you are surely confused is the renovation of Penn Station itself.

- Penn Station is currently set to undergo a rebuilding on its current site. This is not dependent on the development of any towers, although they say it could benefit from them down the road. This is considered a different project from the Penn Station redevelopment district, or the Penn District as Vornado calls it.

When Governor Hochul came into office, she thought it would be easier to put everything under one umbrella. And now you see why that wasn't feasible. The window for the rebuilding of the current station was to begin this year, as there is reduced service on the LIRR now that some service has shifted to Grand Central, and before Metro-North service is shifted to Penn.

[mrnyc]

i was about to say, with gateway now in motion they better get crackin on penn south, so sites 1,2,3 here we go.

its around 6-7 years for the gateway tunnels work, so that means 2031 or so completion if they get started next year.

its dam good to have this newly definitive deadline to spur action.

[Zapatan]

- This particular thread is about the redevelopment of the Penn Station district. What that entails is the expansion south of Penn Station to accommodate more tracks and platforms (which will go hand in hand with Gateway). The result of that expansion will be 4-5 towers built above the expansion, with the tax revenue that would normally go to the city going instead to help pay for the expansion and improvements to Penn for a number of years.

- The expansion south is currently undergoing a federal environmental review. Under the review, they are studying 3 options for the expansion. North, south, and underneath the current station. This is all done before they can officially designate the expansion south as the "preferred" direction and that can begin to move forward.

- It also entails connecting the existing Penn to the surrounding neighborhood, with a number of those properties already being developed into 5 towers by Vornado. The tax revenue from those towers would also go to help pay for the expansion and improvements to Penn instead of directly to the City itself for a number of years. These improvements also include connections from Penn to Herald Square, which would connect the PATH and a number of subway lines directly to Penn Station.


Now, the part where you are surely confused is the renovation of Penn Station itself.

- Penn Station is currently set to undergo a rebuilding on its current site. This is not dependent on the development of any towers, although they say it could benefit from them down the road. This is considered a different project from the Penn Station redevelopment district, or the Penn District as Vornado calls it.

When Governor Hochul came into office, she thought it would be easier to put everything under one umbrella. And now you see why that wasn't feasible. The window for the rebuilding of the current station was to begin this year, as there is reduced service on the LIRR now that some service has shifted to Grand Central, and before Metro-North service is shifted to Penn.

Thanks, I got it. The title is a bit misleading as it mentions 9 towers of 18-20MSF.

While the station development is indeed exciting, I wonder what Vornado will end up doing in regards to the skyscrapers now that Hochul has separated the projects. I guess that's mostly unknown.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

i was about to say, with gateway now in motion they better get crackin on penn south, so sites 1,2,3 here we go.

its around 6-7 years for the gateway tunnels work, so that means 2031 or so completion if they get started next year.

its dam good to have this newly definitive deadline to spur action.

Imagine if work had begun sooner like it should have. They're targeting 2035.

The federal pledge will allow Gateway’s planners to start seeking companies to construct a tunnel parallel to the deteriorating ones, a project that is expected to cost more than $16 billion before it is completed in 2035.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Thanks, I got it. The title is a bit misleading as it mentions 9 towers of 18-20MSF.

I wonder what Vornado will end up doing in regards to the skyscrapers now that Hochul has separated the projects. I guess that's mostly unknown.

Geezus. I wonder if you are actually that dense, or just pulling my leg. There are 9 (or 10 depending on site 1) towers being developed. Vornado's actions regarding what it's going to build was never dependent on what the state (Hochul) does. They're building because that's what developers do. The towers have NEVER had an exact timeline, as none of it will be built on spec. So, when someone tells you something was "canceled", ask for clarification - exactly what was planned on what date. As for the other towers, there isn't even a developer for those sites yet, and won't be until those sites are put up for bid. We're a long way from that, as I've said, that's currently under federal environmental review, which would be followed by the state's acquisition of properties before any of that can happen.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Geezus. I wonder if you are actually that dense, or just pulling my leg. There are 9 (or 10 depending on site 1) towers being developed. Vornado's actions regarding what it's going to build was never dependent on what the state (Hochul) does. They're building because that's what developers do. The towers have NEVER had an exact timeline, as none of it will be built on spec. So, when someone tells you something was "canceled", ask for clarification - exactly what was planned on what date. As for the other towers, there isn't even a developer for those sites yet, and won't be until those sites are put up for bid. We're a long way from that, as I've said, that's currently under federal environmental review, which would be followed by the state's acquisition of properties before any of that can happen.

Well that's pretty uncalled for. You clearly misunderstood me but there's no point and dragging this on.

No wonder these forums have been so dead lately...

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Well that's pretty uncalled for. You clearly misunderstood me but there's no point and dragging this on.

No wonder these forums have been so dead lately...

And yet……