Canadian Airport Thread

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

This surprises me. The new kid on the block? I hope to avail of this service soon! The 2x2 seating, the freebies in flight plus the what appears to be healthy good quality food offerings all appeal to me!

Doesn't surprise me.

What are they, the 5th or 6th carrier on the route. They're certainly not the cheapest, and offer only limited connections through YYZ. Plus they're using an aircraft who's cost per seat is the highest on the route. That's a recipe for disaster.

[J81]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Doesn't surprise me.

What are they, the 5th or 6th carrier on the route. They're certainly not the cheapest, and offer only limited connections through YYZ. Plus they're using an aircraft who's cost per seat is the highest on the route. That's a recipe for disaster.

Where do you get that info? According to the data ive seen the E2 has the lowest CSM except the A220-300 which it is virtually tied with.

[Dominion301]

Looks like preclearance at YTZ will finally be moving forward: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/me...shop-toronto-city-airport-882986852.html

Minister of Transport to make an important funding announcement for United States-bound travellers at Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by J81

Where do you get that info? According to the data ive seen the E2 has the lowest CSM except the A220-300 which it is virtually tied with.

Not talking about "cost per seat mile" (CASM).

Got it from jimbo737, a reputable contributor over on airliners.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopi...0aabd1af546bbc52ef0b&start=100#p23652345

The E95’s have the highest stage length adjusted unit costs in the game these days which is why no established low cost operators have touched them.

If the economics of the E2 was so much better than the rest, they would be leading the order books by now, and yet.....

A320neo family orders: 8,754
737 Max orders: 5,390
CSeries: 785
E2 orders: 270

[YOWflier]

I’m not convinced of the E2’s economic disadvantage vs A220. They’re both new frames with new tech and use virtually identical powerplants. There are many complex reasons why an aircraft underperforms commercially (sales). C Series before it was given away to Airbus was in the same boat. Bringing neo and max into the comparison is just silly.

[Dominion301]

Official announcement about preclearance at YTZ:

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/us...shop-toronto-city-airport-848352112.html

An announcement by the federal Minister of Transport, The Honourable Omar Alghabra, at Billy Bishop Airport earlier this morning confirmed that funding for the capital expenditure associated with the preclearance facility will be provided by the federal government. This important funding will enable the construction and implementation of the preclearance facility at Billy Bishop Airport which will be operational in 2025.

Billy Bishop Airport is the ninth busiest airport in Canada and the fifth busiest serving US markets. The airport traditionally welcomes approximately 450,000 US passengers per year.

Also: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/go...shop-toronto-city-airport-877146469.html

5th busiest? Perhaps in 2022 with its skewed numbers, but pre-pandemic YTZ would likely rank 8th behind the big 4, YEG, YOW, YWG and a bit ahead of YHZ.

[Dominion301]

YWG's Q1 2023 pax stats:

Sector / YTD 2022 / YTD 2023 / % Change
Dom: 369,076 / 719,508 / +94.9%
TB: 30,189 / 87,437 / +189.6%
Int'l: 29,729 / 102,633 / +245.2%
TTL: 428,994 / 909,578 / +112.0%

Month-Over-Month Change (Feb vs Mar)
Sector / Feb-23 / Mar-23 / % Change
Dom: 226,030 / 262,394 / +16.1%
TB: 26,319 / 34,224 / +30.0%
Int'l: 33,056 / 32,447 / -1.8%
TTL: 285,405 / 329,065 / +15.3%
Avg/Day: 10,193 / 10,615 / +4.1%
% of month's avg daily pax vs 2019 (12,286 avg/day in 2019) = 86.4% for March 2023
YTD TTL vs YTD 2019 = 80.3% for Q1 2023 - currently on pace for 3.6 million pax in 2023

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2021
Dom: 3,146,152 / +163.5%
TB: 222,154 / +951.8%
Int'l: 143,392 / +1,733.4%
TTL: 3,511,698 / +187.1%

[Dominion301]

YOW May pax stats

Sector / May-22 / May-23 / % Change
Dom: 247,060 / 287,675 / +16.4%
TB: 15,534 / 41,476 / +167.0%
Int'l: 0 / 2,200 / +#DIV/0!
TTL: 262,594 / 331,351 / +26.2%

Sector / YTD 2022 / YTD 2023 / % Change
Dom: 796,798 / 1,161,950 / +45.8%
TB: 48,565 / 241,178 / +396.6%
Int'l: 42,722 / 192,929 / +351.6%
TTL: 888,085 / 1,596,057 / +79.7%

Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / Apr-23 / May-23 / % Change
Dom: 232,650 / 287,675 / +23.7%
TB: 52,247 / 41,476 / -20.6%
Int'l: 28,488 / 2,200 / -92.3%
TTL: 313,385 / 331,351 / +5.7%
Avg/Day: 10,446 / 10,689 / +2.3%
% of month's avg daily pax vs 2019 (13,990 avg pax/day) = 76.4%
YTD TTL vs YTD 2019 = 74.8% = on pace for 3.82 million pax in 2023

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2021
Dom: 3,074,151 / +168.7%
TB: 382,948 / +3,306.4%
Int'l: 243,207 / +1,459.3%
TTL: 3,700,306 / +216.1%

YOW is now on pace to surpass YWG's 2023 pax total which would return it to its traditional 6th place ranking.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Doesn't surprise me.

What are they, the 5th or 6th carrier on the route. They're certainly not the cheapest, and offer only limited connections through YYZ. Plus they're using an aircraft who's cost per seat is the highest on the route. That's a recipe for disaster.

Their problem is that any passenger willing to shell out extra cash for better amenities on long flights (a rarity amongst Canadians) is probably going to be want to tied into Aeroplan.

I'm actually surprised how long the Deluces have been able to keep Porter aloft but if they run out of cash lifelines/settlements it will eventually come back to earth. They're still stalling on paying YTZ back the legal settlement that airport operator is owed.

Porter Airlines ordered to pay $130-million to operator of Toronto’s island airport terminal for non-payment of fees during pandemic

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

I’m not convinced of the E2’s economic disadvantage vs A220. They’re both new frames with new tech and use virtually identical powerplants. There are many complex reasons why an aircraft underperforms commercially (sales). C Series before it was given away to Airbus was in the same boat. Bringing neo and max into the comparison is just silly.

The E2 isn’t a new frame. It’s not a clean sheet design. It’s the same old fuselages of the original E jet family with new wings and new engines.

The CSeries, by comparison, is a clean sheet design. Hence why the economics are better.

[YOWflier]

I know it’s not a clean sheet. But with new engines, new wings, new landing gear, new avionics and flight guidance (far better than A220), new fly-by-wire and flight dynamics … it’s new in almost every meaningful way. The economics disparity isn’t significant vs A220 on the type design basis .

[peytol]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

I’m not convinced of the E2’s economic disadvantage vs A220. They’re both new frames with new tech and use virtually identical powerplants. There are many complex reasons why an aircraft underperforms commercially (sales). C Series before it was given away to Airbus was in the same boat. Bringing neo and max into the comparison is just silly.

It's not silly when AC, WJ, Lynx and Flair all send a Max 8 on YYZ-YVR and porter runs an E2. Even if porter manages to match the AC prices, they could loose money and AC while makes money. I really hope porter does well, but unfortunately they have a very large up hill battle.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by peytol

It's not silly when AC, WJ, Lynx and Flair all send a Max 8 on YYZ-YVR and porter runs an E2. Even if porter manages to match the AC prices, they could loose money and AC while makes money. I really hope porter does well, but unfortunately they have a very large up hill battle.

The discussion I’m having is mainly about E2 vs A220.

[casper]

Originally Posted by peytol

It's not silly when AC, WJ, Lynx and Flair all send a Max 8 on YYZ-YVR and porter runs an E2. Even if porter manages to match the AC prices, they could loose money and AC while makes money. I really hope porter does well, but unfortunately they have a very large up hill battle.

YVR-YYZ is one of the very few routes in Canada where the ULCC have a chance.

Compare the fares on YVR-YYZ vrs YYJ-YYZ. There is clearly a premium being paid flying out of the smaller centers in Canada. Those are markets the E2 is a much better fit for.

[J81]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Not talking about "cost per seat mile" (CASM).

Got it from jimbo737, a reputable contributor over on airliners.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopi...0aabd1af546bbc52ef0b&start=100#p23652345



If the economics of the E2 was so much better than the rest, they would be leading the order books by now, and yet.....

A320neo family orders: 8,754
737 Max orders: 5,390
CSeries: 785
E2 orders: 270

Yet he doesnt provide any hard data to support that claim. I like hard data. Like the order numbers you posted above. However, the MAX and NEO fill a different role for the most part than the Cseries or the E2. And there are far more CEO’s and Next Gen 737s flying than Ejets.

Anyway, we know PD got the E2 for dirt cheap. How cheap i dont know. 30-35 million?

[J81]

Originally Posted by peytol

It's not silly when AC, WJ, Lynx and Flair all send a Max 8 on YYZ-YVR and porter runs an E2. Even if porter manages to match the AC prices, they could loose money and AC while makes money. I really hope porter does well, but unfortunately they have a very large up hill battle.

I Dont personally think the E2 is a good aircraft for YVR-YYZ. You dont make money flying 120pax one round trip per day. It’s impossible. I think shorter missions multiple times a day is a better way to utilize them. But what do i know?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

The discussion I’m having is mainly about E2 vs A220.

Then you have to compare routes that the E2 and 220 are competing on. Air Canada can throw a 220 into the mix for YVR-YYZ because it's supplementing the many other flights in the day they do on that route. They aren't relying on the 220 for that route though like Porter is with the E2. The economics are likely a better comparison in the short to medium haul segments that these aircraft are really designed for.

[caribb]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Not talking about "cost per seat mile" (CASM).

Got it from jimbo737, a reputable contributor over on airliners.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopi...0aabd1af546bbc52ef0b&start=100#p23652345



If the economics of the E2 was so much better than the rest, they would be leading the order books by now, and yet.....

A320neo family orders: 8,754
737 Max orders: 5,390
CSeries: 785
E2 orders: 270

The E2 has low sales because of the scope clause in the USA. Regional carriers can’t order it. If that wasn’t a factor I’m sure every regional carrier with an ERJ would be flying it.
https://simpleflying.com/scope-clause-explained/

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Then you have to compare routes that the E2 and 220 are competing on.

Yes I’d like to see that data where the two go head to head. Got some?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by caribb

The E2 has low sales because of the scope clause in the USA. Regional carriers can’t order it. If that wasn’t a factor I’m sure every regional carrier with an ERJ would be flying it.
https://simpleflying.com/scope-clause-explained/

Indeed.

The weight/passenger restrictions made the E175-E2 a dead duck. Regional carriers in the US are still buying the original version new because of this.

The E190/195-E2 are kind of in a twilight zone because of the weaker position of Embraer. As much as it pains me to admit it, Airbus brought serious support/marketing power to the A220, because one could get package deals with A320s. This is a big advantage for larger airlines, who have significant variation in their aircraft needs. Sure, it essentially killed the A319neo, but an optimized aircraft to mission (versus a shrink of a larger aircraft) is mostly going to be the better choice for a large airline. It also allows Airbus to focus on the larger/longer range versions of the A320. The market itself is smaller for a smaller type of aircraft by nearly an order of magnitude (see: number of A320/737 sales versus A220/E2), so smaller manufacturers have an uphill climb.

Porter probably got a screaming deal on the E2 as a result. It just launched right when the aviation market in Canada got very crowded, so the economics of the plane are probably not going to be the success/fail determinant. I don’t see the mania lasting and someone will likely eat the losses eventually. If one isn’t filling planes at a profit regardless of size, the efficiency goes to pot regardless.