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  #1221  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2023, 9:30 PM
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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/nyregion/hochul-penn-station-vornados.html




Quote:
The official reason for Monday’s news conference was the kickoff of the design process, which Ms. Hochul said would “entertain all concepts” for how to improve the station.

An option proposed by a subsidiary of the Italian firm ASTM Group would involve constructing an aluminum-and-steel rectangle around Madison Square Garden, which sits above the station. That plan has gained support from some elected officials who want the station transformed from an eyesore to an asset for the neighborhood — though not from Janno Lieber, the chief executive of the M.T.A. ASTM planned to reveal details of its proposal, including a cost estimate, this week.
Quote:
The transportation authority will invite architects, engineers and design firms to submit ideas for improving the station. “I want to be open-minded about all of the possible scenarios,” Ms. Hochul said.

But there will continue to be opposition from residents of the neighborhood and other critics, some of whom argue that Madison Square Garden should be relocated so that a much grander Penn Station could be built on the site.

And there remains the possibility that the owners of the Garden would sue to block the state’s plans if it might hinder their ability to continue to stage hockey and basketball games and concerts. The city’s Planning Commission is considering a renewal of the Garden’s permit to operate atop the station.
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  #1222  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2023, 9:54 PM
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Conceptual, but nice interiors…























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  #1223  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2023, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
MThe construction of those towers was to be tied into the expansion of the station itself to the south.
Right, there has been extensive public confusion and poor press coverage.

There are multiple things happening at Penn/Moynihan/MSG, but this is the Penn/LIRR renovation. This is not the Penn South expansion, which ties in with the Vornado plans, the new tunnel, and the additional tracks.

In any scenario, under any governor and office market, this new hall isn't directly tied to Vornado's plans and/or Penn South, but the media always lumps everything in together.
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  #1224  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2023, 11:20 PM
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obviously msg is now not going anywhere and these ideas to get some glass around it and let the light in is a pretty decent compromise.

it doesnt seem like they are locking themselves into anything.

if msg leaves at some point then penn can get more airy light eventually.

gateway and penn south expansion will come along in time.
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  #1225  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2023, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
In any scenario, under any governor and office market, this new hall isn't directly tied to Vornado's plans and/or Penn South, but the media always lumps everything in together.
Right, and it always annoys me that they are too lazy to try and get it right. I get that the public doesn't dig into these things, but there was a time when reporters did.

Anyway, this is all happening - the expansion and rebuilding - because it's badly needed. It's not talked about as much, but Gateway is happening. If you ride the train into Penn, as you approach the Secaucus station, you can see the rapid pace of work on the new Portal Bridge (I try to get video, but it's always outdated before I can upload it). That's part of the Gateway project. Gateway will allow the possibility of more trains into Penn, the station expansion will make it a reality. But none of this will happen overnight, and with a snap of the fingers. Those blocks to the south will most certainly be demolished (Vornado isn't involved in that part) and new towers will rise on those sites as planned.

It's funny that if you look at all of the headlines about today's announcement, most of them lead with the towers being "canceled" or "dropped". Yet the towers are present in all of the renderings. They have no clue about what's going on.












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  #1226  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2023, 12:07 AM
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all that money and yet they’re leaving that hideous grotty msg facade?

they should get dolan on that in exchange for not booting him out for now.
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  #1227  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2023, 12:22 AM
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  #1228  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2023, 5:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
all that money and yet they’re leaving that hideous grotty msg facade?

they should get dolan on that in exchange for not booting him out for now.
They can’t boot Dolan out, that’s the issue. Dolan diesn’t really care what the outside of the arena looks like (it’s a cash cow either way), but he should take advantage of the oppurtunity now with all of the construction, to integrate a new design into whatever is designed at Penn Station. What they are going with currently, while an improvement, is only a half measure. It will be many decades before the oppurtunity to rebuild around the current site presents itself again. Imagine getting through a decade of construction to suddenly have Dolan say, “you know what New York, how do you feel about more construction disrupting your fancy new station’?”
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  #1229  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2023, 9:30 PM
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https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/ny-...design-kicks-off-with-notice-to-proceed/

NY Penn Station Reconstruction Design Kicks Off With Notice to Proceed


Written by Carolina Worrell
June 27, 2023


Quote:
The New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) and its railroad partners have issued a Notice to Proceed to kick off preliminary design on a plan to transform the existing Penn Station into a “world-class commuter and intercity transit hub,” the agency recently announced.

According to MTA, the design will be based on the Penn Station Master Plan, a joint planning process undertaken by the railroads, which proposes “a set of solutions to the existing deficiencies of the station that impede safe and efficient movement of passengers, underutilization of property, such as the mid-block taxiway, and takes into account foot traffic patterns to focus on improvements that will best serve users of the station, in a financially efficient way.”

New York State has already appropriated $1.3 billion for Penn Station Reconstruction with additional funding anticipated via cost-sharing among the railroads that use the station and federal grant programs being “aggressively pursued.” The project is included on the Northeast Corridor Project Inventory priority list, making it eligible for Federal-State Partnership funding via the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA), and an application for preliminary design was submitted in this past spring. These sources, MTA says, make it possible to fund Penn Station Reconstruction without immediate development proceeds from the Pennsylvania Station Area Civic and Land Use Improvement Project General Project Plan (GPP) adopted by Empire State Development.
Quote:
Penn Reconstruction is both separate and distinct from the future Penn Station Expansion, according to the agency. Both station projects will be subject to federal environmental review. The potential acquisition of property on City Block 780 is not part of the Penn Station Reconstruction project and may only be considered pursuant to the federal environmental review process for Penn Station Expansion. This expansion of Penn Station is “critical to realizing the additional capacity from the construction of a new Hudson River Tunnel under the Gateway Program,” MTA says.
Quote:
The preliminary design consultant includes WSP|FXC JV, along with noted architect John McAslan, who is recognized for his successful experience designing stations in Sydney, Belfast and New Delhi, and for his design of the reconstruction of Kings Cross Station in London, particularly the skylight in the historic station’s expansion, which created a new train entry hall with an innovative single-span atrium structure that brings in new light and air and creates a central gathering place for commuters.
Quote:
The LIRR Concourse Project reached substantial completion in March. This project raised the ceiling to 18 feet, doubled the width of the corridor, enhanced accessibility, constructed an “iconic” New Penn Station Entrance on Seventh Avenue, improved lighting, air flow and wayfinding, “improving the customer experience and increasing circulation with minimal disruption to MSG or the Station’s operations.” Coming soon, MTA says, are new and returning retail and dining options, whose spaces were also completely rehabilitated. Amtrak invested $300 million in Penn Station over the last five years, including the completion of lighting and platform improvements at the track level, improving accessibility with a new elevator being installed at the 32nd Street and 7th Avenue entrance and introducing the year-round public art initiative “Art at Amtrak.”
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  #1230  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 5:22 PM
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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/28/realestate/nyc-penn-station-plan.html

Private Firm Announces Competing Vision for Penn Station Redesign
In a move that has stoked conflict with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, a private developer unveiled a renovation plan that it says would save at least $1 billion.






By Stefanos Chen and Dana Rubinstein
June 28, 2023


Quote:
A private development firm with an alternative vision for the remaking of Manhattan’s Pennsylvania Station said on Wednesday that its plan would be significantly cheaper than a rival proposal backed by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

The new plan by ASTM North America involves overhauling Penn Station, the busiest train hub in the United States, and wrapping Madison Square Garden in a towering stone facade. Its unveiling occurred days after Gov. Kathy Hochul of New York signaled that the state was ready to move forward with a renovation.

ASTM officials said at a presentation on Tuesday that the firm’s plan was better than the one backed by the M.T.A. because it would be $1 billion cheaper and result in a more unified train hall.
Quote:
The announcement was likely to stoke conflict between ASTM and the M.T.A., whose chief, Janno Lieber, said in April that the plan was wasteful, in part because it involved paying the owners of Madison Square Garden, which sits atop the station, a hefty fee to demolish a portion of the complex.

Although Amtrak owns the building, the decision on which redesign plan to pursue was expected to be made jointly by the railroad and the states of New York and New Jersey, which control the M.T.A. and New Jersey Transit.
Quote:
Responding to the M.T.A.’s criticism, Peter Cipriano, the senior vice president of ASTM North America, said at a presentation on Tuesday that his firm’s proposal would be less expensive and that there was a clear plan to pay for it.

“Theirs is $7-billion-plus, and where the money for that comes from is completely unclear,” he said, referring to cost estimates for the M.T.A. plan, which have been as high as $10 billion.

The ASTM proposal would involve buying and demolishing the Theater at MSG, a 160,000-square-foot venue on the west side of the entertainment complex, to make way for two new, light-filled train halls: a grand entrance on Eighth Avenue with 55-foot ceilings and a 105-foot atrium in the middle of the block where trucks currently offload equipment. The renovation would provide easier access to all 21 tracks, reduce congestion and allow for additional track capacity in subsequent upgrades. Construction could be completed in six years, the firm said.

ASTM would put up $1 billion to kick-start the project and rely on a mix of state and federal funding to cover the balance. The firm would then manage and operate the station for 50 years, while the three rail agencies that use the space — Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and the M.T.A. — would pay a total of about $250 million a year for the privilege. Any construction cost overruns would be borne by the private company.
Quote:
The cost to buy the Theater at MSG would be under $500 million, Mr. Cipriano said. In the ASTM plan, Madison Square Garden Entertainment, which is run by the billionaire James Dolan, would also pay to renovate the distinctive drum of the Garden.

The plan was revealed in March. The design team, led by PAU and HOK, the architectural firm that codesigned La Guardia Airport’s lauded Terminal B, has since made several changes.

Gone is the glassy box that would have surrounded MSG, replaced with a neoclassical podium of limestone or granite, with lines that mirror the Corinthian columns of the Beaux-Arts Farley Building across the street.
Quote:
The M.T.A. plan would accomplish many of the same goals, with the exception of a new entrance at Eighth Avenue, which the agency has called unnecessarily costly, because the majority of passengers use the Seventh Avenue entrance. The M.T.A. has estimated that the total cost of constructing the Eighth Avenue train hall would be $1.5 billion to $2 billion.

The ASTM plan is less expensive in part because the design would not remove a critical structural bridge between Seventh and Eighth Avenues. The removal could add more than $1 billion to construction costs, Mr. Chakrabarti said.

Jamie Torres-Springer, the president of M.T.A. construction and development, said rebuilding the mid-block bridge was important to the agency’s plan.

ASTM also worked closely with engineering firms familiar with the intricacies of the Garden. Mr. Torres-Springer said that the M.T.A. was not interested in paying for engineering details it already had.

“It’s very funny — every proposal, large and small, from ASTM involves paying MSG money,” Mr. Torres-Springer said.

A spokeswoman for MSG Entertainment said there had been no discussion with the M.T.A. about charging the agency for engineering services.
Quote:
But the ASTM plan is roundly opposed by Mr. Lieber, the chief executive of the M.T.A., who has bristled at the notion that a private company would insert itself into a process he had been managing.
He and his team have pointed to the station’s new Long Island Rail Road corridor as evidence that the M.T.A. is capable of overseeing major projects competently, and he has taken issue with the notion of paying Madison Square Garden Entertainment to acquire the Theater at MSG.

Madison Square Garden Entertainment has indicated openness to the ASTM plan. It has appeared to be less open to the M.T.A.’s proposal.

During a recent hearing about the Garden’s bid to have its stadium operating permit renewed in perpetuity, an MSG representative dismissed the M.T.A.’s plan as “a concept piece” that “does not work from an engineering perspective.”










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  #1231  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 5:31 PM
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Still want MSG moved but those are looking grand.
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  #1232  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 5:41 PM
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Still want MSG moved but those are looking grand.
It’s closer to what I think they should do, integrate the design between Penn and MSG so it doesn’t look like a shotgun marriage. But what they’ve shown is a little bland. I guess you get what you pay for.
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  #1233  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 6:06 PM
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It's great to see both of these proposals together- you can clearly see that both plans have already begun to influence eachother. The MTA plan embracing a more compelling entry on 8th avenue, and ASTMmaking the midblock atrium a stronger focal point. Both proposals are very similar at the concourse level.

The NYTimes article is enlightening in finally peeling back to some layers of substance in each party's motives. The MTA is just not playing nicely yet with MSG yet, and Janno Lieber & team seem to personally loathe the ASTM plan for providing incentives to MSG.

The one thing about the ASTM plan is it adds another party to this whole jurisdictional kerfuffle, with them running the station for 50 years (and charging the railroads $250 million a year to use the station)

Amtrak owns penn station now- does anyone know if the MTA or NJtransit pay them rent to use the station?
-----
Also good visuals on PAU's website:
https://pau.studio/what/new-new-york-penn/
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  #1234  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 7:14 PM
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It's pretty obvious that the ASTM plan is a front for MSG. MSG has been bankrolling this effort, behind the scenes, which became obvious to the MTA early this year. NY Times should really be focusing on this. Smaller, local publications have noted that ASTM has admitted, in public presentations, that they've worked together, but they refused to offer more details.

The ASTM plan sucks primarily bc it makes MSG permanent. Which is the entire point. This is a a roundabout way of keeping MSG there forever. It removes any hope of redeveloping the block. It also doesn't really work well with Penn South. Hard pass.
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  #1235  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
The one thing about the ASTM plan is it adds another party to this whole jurisdictional kerfuffle, with them running the station for 50 years (and charging the railroads $250 million a year to use the station)
I think that’s part of the reasoning for the push. Another big reason the MTA was against this particular plan is because it only covers the existing station, and not the upgrades that all parties agreed to (variouscsubway station improvements, connections to the Herald Square subway complex and the surrounding neighborhood. The MTA also wants to make the connection between MSG and 2 Penn a feature of the new midblock train hall (shown in the renderings). But the governor has opened it up to anyone who has plans, though they will have to follow the same general plan currently in place. So we still have no concrete idea of what this will look like, just the general understanding.



Quote:
Amtrak owns penn station now- does anyone know if the MTA or NJtransit pay them rent to use the station?
-----
Also good visuals on PAU's website:
https://pau.studio/what/new-new-york-penn/
I believe there is some type of arrangement. NJ Transit and Amtrak typically use the same area of the station, but Amtrak is more focused on the platforms at Moynihan now.

NJ Transit does pay Amtrak for use of rails…

https://www.nj.com/traffic/2017/04/can_a...st_corridor_if_state_withholds_rent.html

Quote:
NJ Transit pays Amtrak $93 million a year so that more than 400 of its trains can use the Northeast Corridor.

Of NJ Transit's $74 million payment, $55.28 million covers the NEC between Penn Station New York and Trenton. Another $1.9 million is for the Atlantic City line and $1.1 million is for the rail route used by Atlantic City line trains to get to and from the 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.
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  #1236  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 12:49 AM
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https://njbiz.com/hudson-tunnel-project-gains-momentum-with-25m-grant/

Hudson Tunnel Project gains momentum with $25M grant





Matthew Fazelpoor
June 28, 2023


Quote:
As part of a $2.2 billion round of funding through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, a $25 million grant was awarded for the Tonnelle Avenue Bridge and Utility Relocation Project — an early, key component of the Hudson Tunnel Project and the broader Gateway Program.

The grant comes via the Rebuilding American Infrastructure with Sustainability and Equity (RAISE) grant program, which is aimed at funding and completing critical freight and passenger transportation infrastructure projects.

“Using the funds in President [Joe] Biden’s infrastructure law, we are helping communities in every state across the country realize their visions for new infrastructure projects,” said U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. “This round of RAISE grants is helping a new generation of good-paying jobs in rural and urban communities alike, with projects whose benefits will include improving safety, fighting climate change, advancing equity, strengthening our supply chain, and more.”

The project, which will build an overpass and move necessary utilities to carry Tonnelle Avenue in North Bergen over the alignment of the new Hudson River Tunnel, will commence this year and is expected to take roughly two years to complete. It will be the first early work in New Jersey for the new Hudson Tunnel.
Quote:
“With this $25 million grant award from U.S. DOT, the Tonnelle Avenue Gateway early work project will happen. Before this year is out, there will be shovels in the ground on this project and on the Hudson Yards Concrete Casing Section 3, so work will be underway on the Hudson Tunnel Project in both New Jersey and New York,” said Gateway Development Commission (GDC)’s Balpreet Grewal-Virk, New Jersey commissioner and co-chair; Alicia Glen, New York commissioner and co-chair; and Tony Coscia, vice-chair and Amtrak commissioner, in a joint statement.

“Gateway is moving rapidly from planning to reality. The award shows confidence in GDC’s growth and capability to receive federal funding, and we are grateful to the Biden Administration, U.S. DOT, Majority Leader [Charles] Schumer (D-N.Y.), our congressional allies, and our governors for that confidence, and for putting real money behind their support.”
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  #1237  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 1:40 AM
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More images from the ATX concept...

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-...28-lmmxo2cthjbvpemc7b4wuiqlx4-story.html













https://nypost.com/2023/06/28/astm-unveils-6b-plan-for-penn-station-overhaul/











https://www.curbed.com/2023/06/penn-station-plans-astm-mta-msg.html








^ This plan is a step in the right direction towards a unified design.


But I like the MTA concourse plan better, and the way the MSG bridge opens over the concourse...















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Last edited by NYguy; Jun 29, 2023 at 1:50 AM.
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  #1238  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 2:14 AM
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Few more from today's proposal for comparison...















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  #1239  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 5:55 PM
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That MSG encasement is awful and waaay too modern.
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  #1240  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TREPYE View Post
That MSG encasement is awful and waaay too modern.
This alternative proposal has no chance of happening, so I wouldn't worry about it. The MTA/state proposal is obviously going to prevail.
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