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  #14441  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 2:19 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by mishko27 View Post
...Belleview station is lovely, now if only some infill could happen on the east side of Arapahoe station...
Centennial needs to proactively rezone that. They have enough ground to accommodate that outdated commercial/industrial elsewhere along Arapahoe out to Parker Road and would be wise to rezone that Arapahoe/I-25 corridor to accommodate high density residential. No existing neighbors to oppose and complain NIMBY this or that for a rezone there. I, for one, have been down that road and been told no...Cities are TERRIFIED of losing commercial tax base. There's also the airport influence area which encroaches I believe roughly to the north south line of Havana.
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  #14442  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2023, 3:22 PM
twalm twalm is offline
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Originally Posted by Whereveryougo View Post
Yes, this one is definitely under construction and the site is so huge I incorrectly assumed it was two buildings.
I think I saw somewhere that they are building the first of two buildings on the lot. So the site as-is will eventually be two buildings.
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  #14443  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2023, 12:03 AM
mhays mhays is online now
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
If you look at major projects awards lists - ie anything in the millions moreso than a small contract here and there for the never ending everyday norm gubment needs, there's MAYBE 5 contractors/consultants who compete for state and major local work (of all kinds, not just construction). Not sure what it's like in Washington, but that kind of competition certainly isn't normal here in Colorado, to my knowledge. Qualification, I do not apply for any type of state/local work.
In the greater central/south Puget Sound area, I count over 30 general contractors who have recently won public school projects over $10m (last 7-8 years).

That said, the list looks very different in Olympia vs. Everett. And it's really different for bid work vs. GC/CM or DB.

And any given project might just get a few proposals in the busy times, sometimes not even that.

That's just one project type. Roads won't have a ton of crossover with schools.
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  #14444  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2023, 6:41 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
Centennial needs to proactively rezone that. They have enough ground to accommodate that outdated commercial/industrial elsewhere along Arapahoe out to Parker Road and would be wise to rezone that Arapahoe/I-25 corridor to accommodate high density residential. No existing neighbors to oppose and complain NIMBY this or that for a rezone there. I, for one, have been down that road and been told no...Cities are TERRIFIED of losing commercial tax base. There's also the airport influence area which encroaches I believe roughly to the north south line of Havana.
Centennial is one of the most difficult places in the metro to develop, up there with Lakewood. They pretend to support density, infill and affordable housing in the name of best practices; then, anywhere it might go, the answer is always "no not there because blah blah blah."

Propose elevator served apartments near the airport - the answer is no because of the airport noise overlay. This is especially ironic for senior housing, who might be less bothered by the noise, but the answer is still no. You can only develop commercial around the airport.

Propose any residential at all in "The District" fka Jones District. The answer is no because Centennial is enforcing a moratorium on residential there until more commercial/office is built.

Propose elevator-served infill adjacent to an existing neighborhood and watch the NIMBY come out of the woodwork.

Propose infill around one of their precious shopping malls. The answer is no because of traffic, parking, blah blah blah.

The bottom line is they don't want residential infill. They only want commercial and office development, and they don't care about post-Covid trends. They are going to die on that hill.
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  #14445  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2023, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
The bottom line is they don't want residential infill. They only want commercial and office development, and they don't care about post-Covid trends. They are going to die on that hill.
Centennial doesn't really have that much commercial. They lack both the NE and SW corners of Arapahoe Rd and Parker for example. I recall that So Clinton is unincorporated and north of Arapahoe along I-25 is Greenwood Village isn't it?

NIMBY-ism a problem certainly.

Centennial OKs SouthGlenn redevelopment plan to add housing, replace Macy’s and Sears buildings
December 15, 2021
Quote:
After nearly three years, one of the most prominent and contentious civic issues in Centennial has been decided with the city council’s approval of a plan to dramatically reshape Centennial’s flagship shopping center. Property developers pushed the plan in an attempt to breathe more life into the outdoor mall and residential complex, but it met opposition for years from some area residents.
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  #14446  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2023, 2:48 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Centennial doesn't really have that much commercial. They lack both the NE and SW corners of Arapahoe Rd and Parker for example. I recall that So Clinton is unincorporated and north of Arapahoe along I-25 is Greenwood Village isn't it?

NIMBY-ism a problem certainly.

Centennial OKs SouthGlenn redevelopment plan to add housing, replace Macy’s and Sears buildings
December 15, 2021
As far as small communities in the 100k people range goes, Centennial probably has the best diversified tax base in the state. They have an extremely high allocation of commercial/industrial property tax base compared to the size of their population AND relative as an allocation of overall land use. They also have a mall (albeit struggling a bit) and one of the busiest retail/commercial corridors in the state on Arapahoe road. They don't do things because 1) they don't have to and 2) if they add residential, it will change their budget dynamics. This is how the leaders of Cities think now. Instead of doing what's best for people in general (like say housing for all or at least housing for most) they do what's in the best interest of the bureaucratic machine.

Far as airports go, the noise overlay thing is supposedly a real hindrance for residential uses because of some funding mechanism tied to # complaints affecting regional airport funding on the federal side. Ran into it in Broomfield once, just not sure I believed most of what I heard from the 'officials' and the hornets nest to figure out the specifics required more time than I have to waste.

Maybe a good topic to chase down for TakeFive? I know you love those rabbit holes and I'd be curious to see what you'd come up with.
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  #14447  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2023, 8:06 PM
coolmandan03 coolmandan03 is offline
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Propose elevator served apartments near the airport - the answer is no because of the airport noise overlay. This is especially ironic for senior housing, who might be less bothered by the noise, but the answer is still no. You can only develop commercial around the airport.
Can you imagine the dictator required to say "seniors have to live by the airport because they're hard of hearing..." Go back to China Xi. That's the same dumb thought that got Toledo Mayor Finkbeiner removed after suggesting in a meeting to move deaf people near the airport.
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  #14448  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 6:31 AM
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No Big Deal
So a little deal then?
Yeah, that fits

Mortenson Breaks Ground on Denver Headquarters in RiNo
June 15, 2023 - Mile High CRE


Image courtesy of Mortenson

Quote:
This week, Mortenson celebrated the groundbreaking of its four-story, 65,000-square-foot Denver headquarters at 3083 Walnut Street within Denver’s RiNo Art District.

The project is being developed, constructed, owned, and occupied by Mortenson. Mortenson will occupy roughly 37,000 square feet of the mixed-use building on the second and third floors, and the top and ground levels will be available for office and retail leasing, respectively.

Regarding downtown office space

A new reality for downtown Denver’s half-empty buildings: ‘The value’s not gonna go back to what it used to be’
June 23, 2023 By Sarah Mulholland - CPR News
Quote:
The one thing that is all but certain is that many office buildings are worth significantly less money now than they were before the COVID pandemic. Republic Plaza — the largest office tower in Colorado and an icon of the Denver skyline since it was built in the 1980s — is worth less than half of what it was valued at in 2012, according to loan documents for the property. That loss equates to hundreds of millions of dollars.
Nicely written piece by Sarah Mulholland; she sources material from Vivek Sah.
Quote:
Appraisals aren’t an exact science, and the building could eventually recover some of that value. But even so, it’s definitely not worth what it was just a few years ago, according to Vivek Sah, director of DU’s Burns School of Real Estate and Construction Management. The same holds true for much of the office real estate downtown, he said.

“The value's not gonna go back to what it used to be,” Sah said. “We are seeing [that] across all the markets in the country. It's not ever gonna be the same .… If you add what’s happening in our downtown in terms of homelessness and crime and other concerns, the downtown market is going to shift.”
Budget Blues Ahead - but not yet

From what I gather the City of Denver along with the state, also RTD is still benefitting from COVID Relief distributions which (afaik) go thru 2024. Likely, most of these $'s have already been allocated.

Vivek Sah points out that dropping RE values could have a significant impact on Denver's property tax collections moving forward.

There's $trillions in shaky RE loans across the country. Pieces may be a little problem, chunks may be a bigger problem. After recovering stock values recently the Regional Banks saw some fairly significant selling again this week. Who knows where this all ends up?
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  #14449  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 7:17 AM
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........


Denver ranked one of worst-run cities in the country
Jun 21, 2023 By DJ Summers - KDVR
Quote:
DENVER (KDVR) — Denver spends more city money than it’s worth, according to a new report.

Financial adviser site WalletHub analyzed 149 of the largest cities in the U.S. to see which are the best run. The study asks the question of return on investment – how well do city services operate compared to how much the city spends? The results said Denver is one of the worst-run cities in the country, ranking 135 out of 149 cities, sandwiched between Philadelphia and Memphis. San Francisco is dead last.

It isn’t the quality of Denver’s city services that causes it to rank so low – they rank 63 – but rather the amount of money spent. Denver is tied with San Francisco, Atlanta, New York and Nashville for the 145th-highest outstanding debt per capita and has the 142nd-highest budget per capita.
What about Aurora, wong's favorite city.
Quote:
Other Colorado cities rank considerably higher than Denver, including neighboring Aurora. Aurora ranks 59th overall despite having nearly the same overall quality of city services as Denver, ranking 70th. Aurora simply spends less, with the 68th lowest budget per capita.
As bunt once suggested ask the voters to approve spending for this or that and they (almost always) approve.

I'll suggest one defense in Denver's behalf

Voters have approved spending for a lot of 'Urbanism' priorities which likely aren't appreciated by whatever statistics are used. Whether sidewalks or bike lanes etc if this is what Denver wants then they shouldn't (necessarily) be penalized for this.

OTOH the money spent for Homelessness compared to results and crime rates indicates Denver Needs a New Mayor - Here's to hoping.
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  #14450  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 6:01 PM
mojiferous mojiferous is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post

Denver ranked one of worst-run cities in the country
Jun 21, 2023 By DJ Summers - KDVR
You know your "study" has solid methodology when the results are almost perfectly sorted by population, population density, and have a easily readable bias for local politics.

As always, these clickbait-y things are crafted to appeal to a target demographic that will readily share it and are made to appear to be completely data-driven. But if you look closer, the methodology is questionable, the data is really questionable, and they don't have a data scientist on the study (probably because no one would sign off on it)

For example they used "perception of safety" numbers from numbeo.com, which gets its data from... feelings? who knows?

They also have share of homeless population as a factor in safety and not economy, which means that they already have a built-in bias of "homeless == crime" despite already having violent crime and property crime weighted heavily in safety.

They use school data from greatschools.org, probably because they never wanted to publish this study in a respectable journal and gaining access to less biased data sources on school performance is expensive and time consuming.

Infrastructure uses their own walk scores based on block length and intersection density (?) instead of using the NWI data or even Walkscore (but they mention them in the sources? Maybe they looked at the NWI data and decided that it would probably make places like DC and SF too positive)

And even worse "infrastructure" weights water quality and air pollution way lower than a "recreation" score (that is based on another wallethub study, no less) Recreation seems to have a higher weight in the scores than pollution, transit, and biking combined!

The best part is that a lot of these statistics indicate very little about the abilities or value of the local government. So much is based on the structure and infrastructure of cities that are governed by history or geography and not reflective of the current management. And the scores are built in such a way that helps smaller less-populated towns and hurts large population centers. Do you know why Casper WY has the lowest long-standing debt per capita? Have you been to Casper? They aren't exactly building new airports or convention centers or transit systems.

You might ask yourself "why would the scores be so weirdly weighted?" And the answer is, so they could make sure that places like Lincoln and Las Cruces are higher in the rankings than scary "liberal" places like LA or San Francisco or Denver. They got some numbers and adjusted them until they came out with results that confirmed that cities that met certain criteria were weighted up or down.

That's the long and short of this. They're interesting to dissect and analyze, but ultimately mean nothing - the bad part though is that people cite these as legit reasoning for moving to or doing business with a city, or use them as cudgels in elections or council meetings to push agendas. Guaranteed someone looked at this and thought "I am tired of the homeless and scared of crime and it is obvious that the problem is related to the city having so much debt."
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  #14451  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 7:54 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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Thanks mojiferous for your sanity and perspective on this.
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  #14452  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 9:08 PM
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I surely can appreciate your ability to analyze data
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
You know your "study" has solid methodology when the results are almost perfectly sorted by population, population density, and have a easily readable bias for local politics.
I'm not surprised that urban areas suffer in comparison to 'some' suburban communities. Mentioning politics is redundant since most urban areas are true blue.

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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
For example they used "perception of safety" numbers from numbeo.com, which gets its data from... feelings? who knows?

They also have share of homeless population as a factor in safety and not economy, which means that they already have a built-in bias of "homeless == crime" despite already having violent crime and property crime weighted heavily in safety.
Big disagree here. For starters these types of statistics are questionable for a number of reasons as to how valid they are.

"perception of safety"

IMO, this is HUGELY important. For most people statistics are mumbo jumbo meaningless; what they know is how safe they feel 1) riding a bus 2) walking down the street 3) in their own neighborhood etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
They use school data from greatschools.org, probably because they never wanted to publish this study in a respectable journal and gaining access to less biased data sources on school performance is expensive and time consuming.
I wasn't familiar with Greatschools. Clearly they merely use data that's readily available. What makes them unique is that their comparisons are within each state. Again, that 'some' suburban schools score higher shouldn't surprise anybody. That said, while I love school discussions obviously lower socioeconomic areas will be more challenged. POINT: have you noticed how our National Spelling Bees are now dominated by immigrant children of parents from India? It is fair to observe that families care about schools a lot but raw test scores aren't even the most important thing to consider in my humble opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
And even worse "infrastructure" weights water quality and air pollution way lower than a "recreation" score (that is based on another wallethub study, no less) Recreation seems to have a higher weight in the scores than pollution, transit, and biking combined!
Makes good sense to me. For everyday life people take W&S for granted. Air pollution is more of a regional problem. Most people don't use transit or bike but recreation is something most people have an interest in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
Infrastructure uses their own walk scores based on block length and intersection density (?) instead of using the NWI data or even Walkscore (but they mention them in the sources? Maybe they looked at the NWI data and decided that it would probably make places like DC and SF too positive)
With a West of the Mississippi focus I don't care about D.C.

Speaking of San Francisco

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/business/san-francisco-hotels-loan/index.html
Quote:
Park Hotels and Resorts, the investment firm that owns Hilton San Francisco Union Square and Parc 55 hotels, said Monday that is has ceased payments on a $725 million loan as looks to reduce its presence in the city. The hotels have nearly 3,000 rooms, combined.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/23/business/sf-mayor-proposes-tearing-down-westfield-mall/index.html
Quote:
Earlier this month, Westfield said it planned to surrender its mall, the San Francisco Centre, back to its lender. The mall operator cited the “challenging operating conditions in downtown San Francisco, which have led to declines in sales, occupancy and foot traffic.”
San Francisco has huge problems; it's a total Cluster-Mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
And the scores are built in such a way that helps smaller less-populated towns and hurts large population centers. Do you know why Casper WY has the lowest long-standing debt per capita? Have you been to Casper? They aren't exactly building new airports or convention centers or transit systems.
That smaller cities might rate higher seems like common sense to me. Casper and most of Wyoming is driven by O&G; coal was big at one time. Alaska thrives from the same benefits.

BTW, not all cites or at least metro areas are necessarily liberal.
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  #14453  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2023, 9:27 PM
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Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY
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  #14454  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 3:11 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY
This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!
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  #14455  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2023, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!

Just watch it till the end, gets kind of interesting and a reason I miss home videos.
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  #14456  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 1:16 AM
i4isoar i4isoar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction. Views taken from the top of the building, from the tower cranes, and also showing the steelworkers and crane operators. Just next door, notice Wells Fargo Center (still under construction) close-up shots. I've seen many videos like this for other cities, but nothing like this for Denver or its 1980s-vintage towers:

https://youtu.be/uT82uajUYrY
Quote:
Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
This is really cool, thanks for sharing! Some of my favorite modern day pics of Denver are the early 80's when Republic, Cash Register, and 1800 Cali are all under construction (and roughly 10 other buildings too)!
Thanks for sharing, this is awesome. That, and it's kind of funny to see the PCL logo displayed prominently and exactly the same as what we see posted up all over the 16th St Mall these days. Good on them for not changing their logo in 40 years.

I'm a little confused though: the video shows Republic Plaza getting topped out while the Cash Register is still under construction, but I was under the impression that the Cash Register was completed a year ahead of Republic Plaza? Or at least according to the years listed on this website, but does anyone know anything more on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Just watch it till the end, gets kind of interesting and a reason I miss home videos.
Haha. One day, when Denver builds a new tallest, we should order a similar cake to celebrate.

Last edited by i4isoar; Jun 29, 2023 at 6:57 AM.
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  #14457  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2023, 1:18 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by i4isoar View Post
Thanks for sharing, this is awesome. That, and it's kind of funny to see the PCL logo displayed prominently and exactly the same as what we see posted up all over the 16th St Mall these days. Good on them for not changing their logo in 40 years.

I'm a little confused though: the video shows Republic Plaza getting topped out while the Cash Register is still under construction, but I was under the impression that the Cash Register was completed a year ahead of Republic Plaza? Or at least according to the years listed on this website, but does anyone know anything more on this?



Haha. One day, when Denver builds a new tallest, we should order a similar cake to celebrate.
Behemoths take time, they all overlapped each other. 1980-1983 was undoubtedly the most exciting time for Denver skyscraper construction. I'd post a photo but it's too damn difficult on here for my peanut brain:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166187205134?_t...6a%252B%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
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  #14458  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 1:04 PM
TheGeographer TheGeographer is offline
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Really cool to see the old construction videos of Denver. I snoop on the page from time to time. Currently live in SLC but was born and raised in Denver. Many days I wish I still lived in Denver.

Last edited by TheGeographer; Jun 30, 2023 at 1:16 PM.
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  #14459  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2023, 3:41 AM
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TakeFive TakeFive is offline
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Thanks Matt; pretty nifty
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Republic Plaza Topping Off

Thought many people would appreciate this video of Republic Plaza under construction.
I used to drive down 17th Street, usually on weekends, with my sunroof open so I (or my passengers) could look up at the cranes and construction.

-------------------------------

A Must Read if you're from Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by TheGeographer View Post
Really cool to see the old construction videos of Denver. I snoop on the page from time to time. Currently live in SLC but was born and raised in Denver. Many days I wish I still lived in Denver.
100 years of urban sprawl — Is this your city’s future or can planners turn the tide?
Jun 27, 2023 By Collin Leonard and Lois M. Collins - Deseret News

An in-depth (and interesting) Retrospect of development along the Wasatch Range and Salt Lake City.
Quote:
It was mid-January 1997, the coldest day of the year, when city planners descended on Salt Lake City. ... The planners kicked off “The Utah Quality Growth Public/Private Partnership,” to address the challenge of a rapidly growing population. They joined with local press, government... representatives, business leaders... The man in common was renowned urban designer Peter Calthorpe.

The collaboration would later go by the catchier “Envision Utah.” Recently, reclining in his San Francisco office, Calthorpe told the Deseret News, “It was truly radical and forward-thinking at the time.” He considers it one of his greatest successes.
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  #14460  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2023, 3:04 PM
Curtis Park Curtis Park is offline
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Westside protecting its assets

I love that Westside is putting up a fence around the golf course. I love it more that SOS people are pissed. It would be great if they transplanted a bunch of coyotes or mountain lions to live in their "open space".
https://denverite.com/2023/07/04/park-hill-golf-course-fencing-westside/

Last edited by Curtis Park; Jul 5, 2023 at 6:00 PM.
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