The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think that Translink managing roads and transit is an advantage. Their main focus seems to be making transit as useable, efficient and attractive as possible, and one way to do that is getting people on transit via active transportation, so they'll focus on good pedestrian and cycling links to stations.

Now I'm not from Vancouver, so this is just a theory, and not an observation or known fact.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have agencies like OC Transpo, who I'm sure tries to deliver something resembling passable transit with the limited resources they have, but the City department that manages roads doesn't coordinate projects with OC, so unless a transit project came with a slew of active transportation improvements (and they have), anything not included might take years to happen, or not happen at all. That's how we get a major station like Blair and literally no improvements to pedestrian and cycling infrastructure beyond bike racks that aren't used... because no bike lanes.

I do not compare OC Transpro to Metrolinx or Translink. OC is just the city, which is what the TTC is. But if you want to go there, do you think the TTC should take on Toronto's roads? That is what you are suggesting.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I do not compare OC Transpro to Metrolinx or Translink. OC is just the city, which is what the TTC is. But if you want to go there, do you think the TTC should take on Toronto's roads? That is what you are suggesting.

Maybe. The idea of having a transportation department focusing on moving people in the most effective and efficient way possible instead of parting out transit, roads and pathways, which have contradicting priorities... Doesn't sound crazy to me.

Now Toronto and TTC is different, because Queen's Park interferes constantly. But in Ottawa, it could work if we merged departments, made some major reorganization and provide a better budget. Let the transportation department dictate the best projects to move people, not cars, and try to make the planning process less political.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Maybe. The idea of having a transportation department focusing on moving people in the most effective and efficient way possible instead of parting out transit, roads and pathways, which have contradicting priorities... Doesn't sound crazy to me.

Now Toronto and TTC is different, because Queen's Park interferes constantly. But in Ottawa, it could work if we merged departments, made some major reorganization and provide a better budget. Let the transportation department dictate the best projects to move people, not cars, and try to make the planning process less political.

They should be part of the same department. Just like how a lot of us northerners were happy when they ONTC was moved from the MND to the MTO

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Maybe. The idea of having a transportation department focusing on moving people in the most effective and efficient way possible instead of parting out transit, roads and pathways, which have contradicting priorities... Doesn't sound crazy to me.

Now Toronto and TTC is different, because Queen's Park interferes constantly. But in Ottawa, it could work if we merged departments, made some major reorganization and provide a better budget. Let the transportation department dictate the best projects to move people, not cars, and try to make the planning process less political.

I've never lived in Ottawa so this is only based on theory, but to me it would make sense to have a single transportation authority for the Ottawa-Gatineau area. It would be complicated because of the two separate provinces, and I don't think the federal government would want to involve itself in municipal transit, but if there was some agreement between the two municipalities it could work.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I've never lived in Ottawa so this is only based on theory, but to me it would make sense to have a single transportation authority for the Ottawa-Gatineau area. It would be complicated because of the two separate provinces, and I don't think the federal government would want to involve itself in municipal transit, but if there was some agreement between the two municipalities it could work.

What should happen is somehow, carve out the NCR into its own entity separated from the provinces. Maybe make it a territory.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What should happen is somehow, carve out the NCR into its own entity separated from the provinces. Maybe make it a territory.

Why would you proposes something that will never happen as opposed to the most logical step of both transit agencies coming to some sort of agreement on fare integration or creating a join new agency to coordinate transit in both cities. No need to get the provincial of federal government involved either.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

That doesn't make sense. Those 2 figures contradict each other.

What are you talking about?

[ssiguy]

^^^ You said that the fare is going from $4 to $4.5 cash fare but adult fare from $3 to $3.40. Who would be paying the higher fare except for adults?

[Doady]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

^^^ You said that the fare is going from $4 to $4.5 cash fare but adult fare from $3 to $3.40. Who would be paying the higher fare except for adults?

Oh I understand your confusion. People who don't have a prepaid ticket or token or card have to pay cash, which is higher price. In the past you would have to buy tickets or tokens from a booth or vendor, but now you have to load your card, which can done online. Without a ticket/token or a loaded card, then cash is your only option.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nite

Why would you proposes something that will never happen as opposed to the most logical step of both transit agencies coming to some sort of agreement on fare integration or creating a join new agency to coordinate transit in both cities. No need to get the provincial of federal government involved either.

You would need it to be Quebec and Ontario talking since the cities do not legally have that power. Making the area its own territory might be easier. Ideally, that area should be one transit agency. The problem would be to get to that point. Within Canada, there is no other situation like this.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You would need it to be Quebec and Ontario talking since the cities do not legally have that power. Making the area its own territory might be easier. Ideally, that area should be one transit agency. The problem would be to get to that point. Within Canada, there is no other situation like this.

What legal power do they need to have for fare integration or creating a joint transit planning agreement. All you need is for both transit agencies to agree to fare integration and for both cities to agree to follow a unified transit plan which they both agree to. they would both continue to get provincial funding from their respective province.

The DC metro has no problem going through 2 states and the district without needing to take over Prince George's, Fairfax and Montgomery counties.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nite

What legal power do they need to have for fare integration or creating a joint transit planning agreement. All you need is for both transit agencies to agree to fare integration and for both cities to agree to follow a unified transit plan which they both agree to. they would both continue to get provincial funding from their respective province.

you think going through a constitutional process lasting probably a decade and for Ontario and Quebec a agree to give up one of their largest cities would be easier than an agreement between the cities?

If it is so easy, why has it not been done yet?
What would it take for it to be seen as needed by both agencies and their elected leaders?

I am saying that unless it is forced, it likely won't happen any time soon.

[harls]

I can take a STO bus and show my transfer to an OCtranspo bus driver and go wherever I want in Ottawa. Same thing in reverse.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I've never lived in Ottawa so this is only based on theory, but to me it would make sense to have a single transportation authority for the Ottawa-Gatineau area. It would be complicated because of the two separate provinces, and I don't think the federal government would want to involve itself in municipal transit, but if there was some agreement between the two municipalities it could work.

For sure, it would be better to have one voice direct transit in the entire region however, the current system isn't bad.

At the moment, both transit agencies have a footing in the other city; Ottawa has a few routes going through Hull, and Gatineau has routes to Tunney's Pasture (Federal Office campus/current western terminus of the Confederation Line) and Downtown Ottawa. Both agencies collaborated in re-working the STO's routes through Ottawa with the arrival of the subway tunnel; buses used to use Wellington and Rideau, now they use the old bus Transitway (Albert and Slater) and loop around Lyon Station to provide an easy transfer point. Some routes also provide a transfer at Rideau, which requires walking trough the shopping centre of the same name.

Although we don't have full fare integration, we can use transfers between systems. From what I understand, this is miles better than the GTA and Montreal areas where people have to pay a new fare every time they go into someone else's territory (is this still correct?)

Originally Posted by Doady

Oh I understand your confusion. People who don't have a prepaid ticket or token or card have to pay cash, which is higher price. In the past you would have to buy tickets or tokens from a booth or vendor, but now you have to load your card, which can done online. Without a ticket/token or a loaded card, then cash is your only option.

There we go. I was also unsure what you meant there. So you get a $1.10 rebate by buying tickets or loading your Presto (?)

Ottawa's rebate between cash and Presto is a whopping 5 cents. At $3.70 (Presto single ride), it's a bargain compared to Brampton, apparently.

Originally Posted by harls

I can take a STO bus and show my transfer to an OCtranspo bus driver and go wherever I want in Ottawa. Same thing in reverse.

How does it work on the trip back? So you take STO to Ottawa and transfer for "free" on a bus to Vanier, let's say. When you come back, do you have to pay a cash fare?

[Nite]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it is so easy, why has it not been done yet?
What would it take for it to be seen as needed by both agencies and their elected leaders?

I am saying that unless it is forced, it likely won't happen any time soon.

Easy, there isn't much political will to do it currently because transit is not a hig priority for most local politicians. three it's still very much achievable as opposed to re-writing the constitution and getting Ontario and Quebec to agree to give up one of their largest most prosperous cities.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by giallo

Honestly, as a transit user, I was expecting to have a tough time adjusting to Vancouver's much smaller infrastructure, but it's been great overall.

When you think about it, improving transportation is kind of a thankless task because the general public will never be happy about it. I see TikTok reels about Parisians complaining about the metro. This is in a city where nobody lives more than a ten minute walk from a metro station. People complain about how difficult it is to drive around Phoenix too.

I think Vancouver did a pretty good job - and probably the best job of any North American city where the vast majority of population growth occurred in a time when automobile planning reigned supreme.

There's definitely room for improvement - and Manny Santos' point that New West has very sparse frequent transit service is a good one - but, overall, transit in Vancouver isn't as terrible as most locals usually think it is.

[Dengler Avenue]

There's definitely room for improvement - and Manny Santos' point that New West has very sparse frequent transit service is a good one - but, overall, transit in Vancouver isn't as terrible as most locals usually think it is.

Richmond has it bad too. Don’t get me wrong, the cross-regional ones like 430 and 410 are stellar frequency-wise, but some local ones can still be improved, like the 408 on weekends. Ridership on Garden City Road south of Cook Road is quite up there.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

How does it work on the trip back? So you take STO to Ottawa and transfer for "free" on a bus to Vanier, let's say. When you come back, do you have to pay a cash fare?

STO-OCTranspo integration works like this:
Monthly pass holders of either system have completely seamless use of the other system with their Multi card (STO) or Presto card (OCT)

Declining balance card users have a tougher go of it.
Basically, you can transfer for free between the systems so long as your trip originated on your 'home' system. So, an STO user can tap on to a STO bus, then transfer to an OCTranspo vehicle within the designated transfer window (2 hours, I think?)

Where this falls down, is in instances where, for instance, a STO card holder wants to start a trip on a OCTranspo vehicle. To do that, they would first have to tap their card on a STO vehicle, then they may use the OCT vehicle.
However, unless you are downtown or at Tunney's pasture (at certain hours) there are no STO vehicles around to do that.
The same is true for Presto card holders who are starting their trips in Gatineau.

So, in plainer terms. I, as a Gatineau resident, could use my declining balance Multi card to take transit to, say, St-Laurent Mall, but I can't get back using my card.
The same would be true for an Ottawa resident using a declining balance Presto card, taking transit to Promenades mall.

The only way back then is to get a cash fare and a transfer to get back on the STO where the systems connect.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Horus

STO-OCTranspo integration works like this:
Monthly pass holders of either system have completely seamless use of the other system with their Multi card (STO) or Presto card (OCT)

Declining balance card users have a tougher go of it.
Basically, you can transfer for free between the systems so long as your trip originated on your 'home' system. So, an STO user can tap on to a STO bus, then transfer to an OCTranspo vehicle within the designated transfer window (2 hours, I think?)

Where this falls down, is in instances where, for instance, a STO card holder wants to start a trip on a OCTranspo vehicle. To do that, they would first have to tap their card on a STO vehicle, then they may use the OCT vehicle.
However, unless you are downtown or at Tunney's pasture (at certain hours) there are no STO vehicles around to do that.
The same is true for Presto card holders who are starting their trips in Gatineau.

So, in plainer terms. I, as a Gatineau resident, could use my declining balance Multi card to take transit to, say, St-Laurent Mall, but I can't get back using my card.
The same would be true for an Ottawa resident using a declining balance Presto card, taking transit to Promenades mall.

The only way back then is to get a cash fare and a transfer to get back on the STO where the systems connect.

Thanks for the clarification. That's generally what I had in mind.

Overall, it's really not too bad. at least if you're an STO Multi balance card holder leaving from Ottawa, you have access to ticket machines at O-Train Stations. If you're an OC Presto balance card holder in Gatineau, you're SOL if you don't have cash; as far as I know, STO doesn't have ticket machines.

[ssiguy]

Vancouver generally provides good local/medium bus distance service and fantastic SkyTrain service. Where it fails is regional connections.

For a city that spreads out into the hinterlands of the Valley, getting across the region is a painfully slow experience and there is no transit connections between Abbotsford/Chilliwack and Langley/Surrey except for one lone local bus that is very infrequent and if you needed to get downtown it would take 2 hours and multiple transfers.

Vancouver seems to think that you can just build SkyTrain forever and that does not make for good regional transit by being slow and uncomfortable. Every other city on the planet knows that you cannot keep just expanding rapid transit/metro into the hinterlands. It becomes a investment of diminishing returns and is exceptional expensive. This is why cities build commuter/suburban rail networks.........they are much faster and cheaper to build and vastly more comfortable for long distances. For some unknown reason, it's a concept Vancouver can't wrap it's head around.