The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

What Montreal REALLY needs to do now is to maintain and dramatically improve its current transit service. Especially the buses. I used to hop on the 80, a bus that used to reliably show up every 4-6 minutes. I have stopped taking the bus altogether a few years ago when I ended up waiting 10-15 minutes on a regular basis. Sometimes the bus wouldnt show up at all. I recall waiting for up to 20-30 minutes in the early mornings of deep cold February and freezing my ass off for that bus. I used to get to work late regularly and getting shit for it because my bus just didnt show up.

Its unacceptable. They need to fix this first.

STM too? I thought it was only OC Transpo.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

What Montreal REALLY needs to do now is to maintain and dramatically improve its current transit service. Especially the buses. I used to hop on the 80, a bus that used to reliably show up every 4-6 minutes. I have stopped taking the bus altogether a few years ago when I ended up waiting 10-15 minutes on a regular basis. Sometimes the bus wouldnt show up at all. I recall waiting for up to 20-30 minutes in the early mornings of deep cold February and freezing my ass off for that bus. I used to get to work late regularly and getting shit for it because my bus just didnt show up.

Its unacceptable. They need to fix this first.

Regular wait times of 10-15 minutes? Are you saying they reduced the frequencies from 4-6 minutes to 20-30 minutes? Or are the buses getting delayed and bunched up?

4-6 minutes to 20-30 minutes frequency would be a very drastic cut. It is also worse than most routes here in Mississauga, which run every 15-20 minutes, or 7.5-10 minutes average wait time. There might be something out of STM's control that is causing such long wait times, such as road construction or weather.

Higher frequency is probably the most overrated method of attracting ridership. Imagine a 60-minute long bus route, you put two buses on it, that is 60 minute frequency, or an average wait time of 30 minutes. You add two buses, the frequency increases to 30 minutes, the average travel time is reduced by 15 minutes, a huge improvement. But when you add two more buses, the frequency increases to 20 minutes, the average wait time is only reduced by 5 minutes. Add another two buses, the wait time is only reduced by 2.5 minutes.

Diminishing returns and after a certain point the best way to reduce wait time is to increase reliability (e.g. limited stop service, all-door boarding with longer vehicles, ROW, signal priority), but again some things are out of the transit agency's control.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

What Montreal REALLY needs to do now is to maintain and dramatically improve its current transit service. Especially the buses. I used to hop on the 80, a bus that used to reliably show up every 4-6 minutes. I have stopped taking the bus altogether a few years ago when I ended up waiting 10-15 minutes on a regular basis. Sometimes the bus wouldnt show up at all. I recall waiting for up to 20-30 minutes in the early mornings of deep cold February and freezing my ass off for that bus. I used to get to work late regularly and getting shit for it because my bus just didnt show up.

Its unacceptable. They need to fix this first.

Wow. It's unfortunate to read this. I never ever had any issues like this when I lived in MTL. Bus was always on time.

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

STM too? I thought it was only OC Transpo.

The TTC as well. Steve Munro does excellent analysis of service unreliability here.

Here's one on the Jane bus.

I think the problem with OC Transpo is that the scheduled service isn't very good to begin with, so any problems with bunching or cancellations is much more noticeable.

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm with Rico – I pretty much never take the bus in Montreal because it has become so unreliable. The metro is still great but most bus lines are either infrequent or constantly late. Some are still okay, like the 18 Beaubien, but it's pretty sad when previously fantastic bus lines like the 80 are shadows of their former selves.

I recently got stuck in a transit clusterfuck in Toronto where the Queen streetcar was completely bunched up, so the wait time was 30 minutes. I went to King Street only to find that streetcar had been replaced by a bus which was stuck in some typically Toronto gridlock caused by cars blocking the intersection. It ultimately took 75 minutes to get from University to Coxwell. I would have taken an Uber but with surge pricing and traffic it would have been $40 and nearly an hour.

[niwell]

Echoing the above from Toronto - I don't really take the streetcar/bus anymore unless I can't avoid it or notice it happens to be there. Reliability and frequency were the biggest selling points of the system which you can no longer count on outside of the subway system. I pretty much cycle everywhere at this point anyways, so it's not a huge issue to me, but if we're talking long distances I'll always find a way to get to the subway. Even with my wife (who doesn't really cycle) we've taken the subway across to the East End and then ubered the rest of the way.

[1overcosc]

Here in Kingston transit has recovered nicely. There's still 3 routes that are running at less than pre-covid frequencies, but all 3 are niche routes (1 is a windy loopy route that serves low density suburbia, another is a local route that parallels a faster express route, and the third is an employment area shuttle) that had pretty low ridership pre-covid anyway. Overall ridership is still down, I think at 75% of pre-covid, but it's rising again.

Pre-covid, in the mid to late 2010s, Kingston became somewhat famous among transit folks for having really high annual transit ridership growth and rapidly expanding service and became the poster child for a successful small city transit system. We'll see if that carries into the 2020s; so far it's looking like we'll be able to maintain what we achieved last decade but we'll struggle to build further on it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by niwell

Echoing the above from Toronto - I don't really take the streetcar/bus anymore unless I can't avoid it or notice it happens to be there. Reliability and frequency were the biggest selling points of the system which you can no longer count on outside of the subway system. I pretty much cycle everywhere at this point anyways, so it's not a huge issue to me, but if we're talking long distances I'll always find a way to get to the subway. Even with my wife (who doesn't really cycle) we've taken the subway across to the East End and then ubered the rest of the way.

It is similar for me. I live on the SkyTrain and mostly either walk to local stuff or take the train. For areas served by buses I'll usually use Uber or drive. Uber can be unreliable here, and will tell you there is a car 2 mins away but when you confirm you don't get anything for 20 minutes.

I've experimented with taking the bus. One trip took me approximately 90 minutes to go around 12 km or so. Of course, this will depend hugely on which bus route you are taking, but some of the low frequency milk runs are really bad and much worse in practice than the schedule says as they can be delayed or full.

I could see bus service being worse now since traffic has gotten worse even since pre-covid times in parts of the city. New West is really bad and is a transportation hub in a major metro but is run like a small town.

[Doady]

Brampton Transit recently raised cash fare from $4.00 to $4.50, adult fare from $3.10 to $3.40. Basically, 10% at one time, yikes.

https://www.brampton.ca/EN/City-Hall/News/Pages/Service-and-Information-Update.aspx/411

Brampton ridership has more than recovered from COVID so lack of fare revenue is not a problem problem. They boast about adding 84,000 service hours this year, but the current service is 1.35 million hours, so only 6% increase in service. Mississauga has 1.48 million service hours, so Brampton service hour per capita will surpass Mississauga this year. I'm not sure it worth 10% fare increase though.

[begratto]

Bus service will be improved in Montreal, starting in September

STM promises more buses on Montreal streets and a cleaner, safer Metro thanks to balanced budget

Buses will arrive more frequently later this year in Montreal and Metro stations will be cleaner and safer, STM executives said at a news conference on Friday.

It will all be possible because the Société de transport de Montréal (STM) has balanced its budget for 2023, erasing an anticipated $78 million deficit thanks to an injection of money from the provincial government and the cutting of some of its costs.

[SFUVancouver]

FYI: article about how Translink's service area and functions compare with its peer agencies in Canada.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-public-transit-system-comparison

[giallo]

I take a combination of bus and Skytrain if moving around Vancouver, and Skytrain if I'm heading into the metro region. Coming from Seoul, which in my experience, has the best transit system on the planet, I'm actually happy with Vancouver's. I live near Broadway/Commercial, so that definitely works in my favour (it's probably the best neighbourhood for transit options in the city). The 99 is my most used bus, and that comes every 2-5 minutes to my front door basically. The only problem with the 99 is that it's PACKED most of the time. The Millennium Line extension can't come soon enough.

If I'm heading to Chinatown/Gastown, I'll take the 22. This bus can run late, but Google Maps is a great tool for scheduling.

I only use Uber if I've been drinking, and it's late, and it's always been fast and reliable.

Honestly, as a transit user, I was expecting to have a tough time adjusting to Vancouver's much smaller infrastructure, but it's been great overall.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by giallo

I take a combination of bus and Skytrain if moving around Vancouver, and Skytrain if I'm heading into the metro region. Coming from Seoul, which in my experience, has the best transit system on the planet, I'm actually happy with Vancouver's. I live near Broadway/Commercial, so that definitely works in my favour (it's probably the best neighbourhood for transit options in the city). The 99 is my most used bus, and that comes every 2-5 minutes to my front door basically. The only problem with the 99 is that it's PACKED most of the time. The Millennium Line extension can't come soon enough.

If I'm heading to Chinatown/Gastown, I'll take the 22. This bus can run late, but Google Maps is a great tool for scheduling.

I only use Uber if I've been drinking, and it's late, and it's always been fast and reliable.

Honestly, as a transit user, I was expecting to have a tough time adjusting to Vancouver's much smaller infrastructure, but it's been great overall.

I agree. Now that I live in Ontario, I am used to driving everywhere, but I’m to visit Vancouver again, hands down I’ll switch back to transit lifestyle.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

FYI: article about how Translink's service area and functions compare with its peer agencies in Canada.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/canada-public-transit-system-comparison

There are a number of things that I see here that makes me think a reorganization of Translink should be done. For instance, it should not be roads and transit. Pick one. Another one, more property taxes should be spent on it for transit. Then you might be able to have more projects on the go.

Mind you, the whole GTA is a mess too. You cannot easily transfer from one system to the next. No gas tax is spent on transit.

They can learn from each other.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by someone123

I could see bus service being worse now since traffic has gotten worse even since pre-covid times in parts of the city. New West is really bad and is a transportation hub in a major metro but is run like a small town.

Aside from 6th and 8th Streets, which are covered by the 106 and 123 routes respectively, I agree transit coverage is very poor in some parts of New West.

Sapperton is very poorly served, aside from the SkyTrain stop near the hospital. The highly walkable East Columbia Street has the meandering 109 bus, but it does not go to Sapperton SkyTrain station which is located to the east on the other side of Brunette Ave, and it runs only every 60 minutes most of the time. I almost never go to the East Columbia corridor because of how little parking there is there and the poor transit service - which is a shame because of all the small businesses along there that I'd like to support.

The 12th Street corridor is another one that isn't great, though the 112 bus frequency is much better than the 109.

Coquitlam is another area with very poor transit service, aside from the SkyTrain. The walkable Austin Heights and Maillardville areas both are lacking frequent buses.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I agree. Now that I live in Ontario, I am used to driving everywhere, but I’m to visit Vancouver again, hands down I’ll switch back to transit lifestyle.

I drive far less now living in Metro Vancouver compared with when I lived in Toronto. For one thing, I'm able to complete a lot more errands on foot where I live now, but SkyTrain is just so much more reliable than the TTC subway.

I actually used the TTC only about once a week in the final year I lived in Toronto, because of how utterly unreliable it was and how it kept making me late for work, even if I left myself plenty of time. By the time I moved out of my apartment in North York, I was either driving to work and paying for parking, or driving to the Oriole GO station and taking the GO train downtown. I remember one time I took GO there was a major incident on the Yonge line and it turned out I ended up saving 2 hours in time because I didn't use the TTC that day. My record driving to work was 18 minutes; if I got on the DVP early enough in the morning, it was a breeze.

I also drove a lot more for errands in Toronto, because of the lack of rapid transit service to grocery stores and such where I lived. Usually it would take 3 times longer to get anywhere compared with driving, unless the subway was involved.

The reliability of Vancouver's SkyTrain compared to the TTC was night and day for me, and that was a selling point for me to move here on a permanent basis.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by giallo

I take a combination of bus and Skytrain if moving around Vancouver, and Skytrain if I'm heading into the metro region. Coming from Seoul, which in my experience, has the best transit system on the planet, I'm actually happy with Vancouver's. I live near Broadway/Commercial, so that definitely works in my favour (it's probably the best neighbourhood for transit options in the city). The 99 is my most used bus, and that comes every 2-5 minutes to my front door basically. The only problem with the 99 is that it's PACKED most of the time. The Millennium Line extension can't come soon enough.

If I'm heading to Chinatown/Gastown, I'll take the 22. This bus can run late, but Google Maps is a great tool for scheduling.

I only use Uber if I've been drinking, and it's late, and it's always been fast and reliable.

Honestly, as a transit user, I was expecting to have a tough time adjusting to Vancouver's much smaller infrastructure, but it's been great overall.

It's amazing how a metro area of 2.5ish million can have an RT system stretching 80km while still having bus corridors so busy they warrant further RT expansion. I mean, compared to any other metro area in that size range in NA...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by giallo

I take a combination of bus and Skytrain if moving around Vancouver, and Skytrain if I'm heading into the metro region. Coming from Seoul, which in my experience, has the best transit system on the planet, I'm actually happy with Vancouver's. I live near Broadway/Commercial, so that definitely works in my favour (it's probably the best neighbourhood for transit options in the city). The 99 is my most used bus, and that comes every 2-5 minutes to my front door basically. The only problem with the 99 is that it's PACKED most of the time. The Millennium Line extension can't come soon enough.

It's a tragedy they aren't building it all the way to UBC now.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There are a number of things that I see here that makes me think a reorganization of Translink should be done. For instance, it should not be roads and transit. Pick one. Another one, more property taxes should be spent on it for transit. Then you might be able to have more projects on the go.

Mind you, the whole GTA is a mess too. You cannot easily transfer from one system to the next. No gas tax is spent on transit.

They can learn from each other.

I think that Translink managing roads and transit is an advantage. Their main focus seems to be making transit as useable, efficient and attractive as possible, and one way to do that is getting people on transit via active transportation, so they'll focus on good pedestrian and cycling links to stations.

Now I'm not from Vancouver, so this is just a theory, and not an observation or known fact.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have agencies like OC Transpo, who I'm sure tries to deliver something resembling passable transit with the limited resources they have, but the City department that manages roads doesn't coordinate projects with OC, so unless a transit project came with a slew of active transportation improvements (and they have), anything not included might take years to happen, or not happen at all. That's how we get a major station like Blair and literally no improvements to pedestrian and cycling infrastructure beyond bike racks that aren't used... because no bike lanes.

[ssiguy]

Translink has done a lot of things right because it acknowledges that it is not a transit provider but a transportation system. It acknowledges that people's commutes don't stop at arbitrary city boundaries and also is in charge of bike networks so the 2 can complement each other. Unfortunately, it is also in charge of the road network and due to Vancouver's horrid traffic in a relatively small city, it has failed monumentally. The SkyTrain service is fantastic and it's bus service is generally quite good. Obviously the TTC blows every other system in the country out of the water with it's streetcar system and the bus system in NA.

REM will be a game changer for Montreal as it will provide Skytrain service levels and add 70km of new rapid transit to currently under served areas. GO fare integration is FINALLY being implemented and with 10,000 trips per week of electrified service, it will be the best regional rail service in NA by a long shot. A REM & GO comparable service in GV is where Translink fails. Surprisingly, for a regional transportation provider, it offers exceptionally poor regional transit. The only commuter/suburban system it has is WCE which is pretty useless in that regard. You can do it thru a combination of buses/SkyTrain but due to this, getting from one region to another is surprisingly long and painful.

When you consider the relative sizes of these 4 cities, I would have to give the prize to Calgary. With it's large and expanding CTrain system, BRT cross city routes, and affordable fares, it punches WAY above it's weight.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Doady

Brampton Transit recently raised cash fare from $4.00 to $4.50, adult fare from $3.10 to $3.40. Basically, 10% at one time, yikes.

That doesn't make sense. Those 2 figures contradict each other.