YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by casper

.../
What would be fantastic is if TAP Air Portugal would come to Vancouver. They are a star alliance operator outside the Air Canada/Lufthansa/United alliance. Provide some real competition. However it is not likely

Yes, I don't think it's at all likely either. The Vancouver><Portugal market just doesn't seem at all substantial, and even if TAP had landing rights elsewhere, which markets could they possibly serve?

[ninjakafi_81]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Yes, I don't think it's at all likely either. The Vancouver><Portugal market just doesn't seem at all substantial, and even if TAP had landing rights elsewhere, which markets could they possibly serve?

I wonder if there's any new markets in Europe that can be added to YVR's portfolio.

[Johnny Aussie]

^ of course there are. But what and when and if is another story!

With 7 carriers operating YVR-Europe year round that’s a pretty decent offering already!

[nname]

Originally Posted by ninjakafi_81

I wonder if there's any new markets in Europe that can be added to YVR's portfolio.

From what AC offers in YYZ/YUL, plus recent FA hiring... I'd say FCO and ATH might be possible one day. BCN becomes less likely now due to recent cut from YUL, plus WS already started the route from YYC.

But AC need to get more planes first.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

From what AC offers in YYZ/YUL, plus recent FA hiring... I'd say FCO and ATH might be possible one day. BCN becomes less likely now due to recent cut from YUL, plus AC already started the route from YYC.

But AC need to get more planes first.

WS to BCN from YYC. AC won’t be adding anything at YYC for a long time. In fact I would even think LHR and FRA from YYC are at risk!

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

WS to BCN from YYC. AC won’t be adding anything at YYC for a long time. In fact I would even think LHR and FRA from YYC are at risk!

Yes I meant to say WS. WS started FCO from YYC as well, but given AC boosting FCO capacity this year, and plan to boost even more next year, maybe they'll reallocate some of the capacity to YVR... ATH are both daily 77W from YYZ and YUL (in fact, more than daily then Rouge was around), so maybe YVR will get something if they want to expand the destination further.

Plus the fact that AC was looking for Greek and Italian-speaking FA for the YVR base. Though the Italian was removed in the updated posting and replace with Arabic... maybe they already got enough? Or the plan cancelled?

As I posted in the YYC thread, given the track record for other JV routes, maybe AC will trade the year-round YYC flight with LH for the YVR one...

[Johnny Aussie]

Another excellent video by eye trapper at YVR

Great variety of European bound heavies:

BA 772 to LGW, LH 744 to FRA, KL 772 to AMS, WK 343 to ZRH and DE 332 to FRA
plus NH 789 to HND and a Cargojet 763 freighter to YHM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IMmqCytzYNo

[Denscity]

We're just not obsessed with Europe like Eastern Canada is.
We have our own tastes. In fact it's hard to find Vancouver tourists in Montreal as they would rather be elsewhere.

[Johnny Aussie]

Another couple of eyetrapper’s recent videos… just shows the variety at YVR and of course so much more…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eMXyoUhp5uI&t=8s&pp=ygULZXllIHRyYXBwZXI%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCNOI50Dsc&pp=ygULZXllIHRyYXBwZXI%3D

LH 744, LH 359, QF 789, NH 789, BA 772, BA 35K, KL 772, AC 77W, AI 77W, AC 789, WS 789, AF 772, NZ 789, 3U 359, JL 763, KE 77F, CX 77W

ETC

[hehehe]

What is with the stupid YVR vs YUL catfights lol. Both airports have impressive routes and reaches IMO.

[Johnny Aussie]

^ is there really? It’s usually just one poster who drives that type of commentary. Long ago ignored/blocked. I focus on Western Canada. What happens there isn’t of that much interest to me.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

^ is there really? It’s usually just one poster who drives that type of commentary. Long ago ignored/blocked. I focus on Western Canada. What’s happens there isn’t of that much interest to me.

Yeah, that's what I meant sorry

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by nname

From what AC offers in YYZ/YUL, plus recent FA hiring... I'd say FCO and ATH might be possible one day. BCN becomes less likely now due to recent cut from YUL, plus WS already started the route from YYC.

But AC need to get more planes first.

I don't know. Considering the recent flight number reshuffle by AC to Europe, they haven't left many flight numbers open in the 800 range for potentially more BCN or ATH service.

Here's what's open.

AC830 which is either CPH or BRU. (and considering they're using a 450 seater B77W on YUL-BRU, I'd say it will be used on a second daily YUL-BRU eventually)

AC862, which is an LHR number. I think they're leaving this open to resume YOW, but a second daily to YVR is a possibility as well.

AC876 belongs to YUL-LYS, which is resuming next winter.

That's it. Of course, this is only a technicality. If they really wanted more YVR-Europe, I think they'll use the 900 numbers to add service.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I don't know. Considering the recent flight number reshuffle by AC to Europe, they haven't left many flight numbers open in the 800 range for potentially more BCN or ATH service.

Here's what's open.

AC830 which is either CPH or BRU. (and considering they're using a 450 seater B77W on YUL-BRU, I'd say it will be used on a second daily YUL-BRU eventually)

AC862, which is an LHR number. I think they're leaving this open to resume YOW, but a second daily to YVR is a possibility as well.

AC876 belongs to YUL-LYS, which is resuming next winter.

That's it. Of course, this is only a technicality. If they really wanted more YVR-Europe, I think they'd find a way to add service.

Now I learnt that flight numbering scheme for AC will only last for a year. After that, it will get messy again. And even in the last year, AC had been moving flights around to accommodate new services... or just randomly pick a number and ignore the scheme altogether.

So what happened in the last year or so...

FRA: YVR flight moved from 846 to 838 to make way for second YUL flight

LHR: YHZ flight briefly moved to 900 for something.. then apparently the plan was shelved so it move back to the original number within a few week

FCO: The second YUL flight just randomly pick a 904 number

TLS/NCE: Adding a new France flight, but there's no room, so TLS took the spot within the "French block" from NCE, and NCE got shelved to 814

CPH/AMS/MAN: To add a new flight from YUL, AC gives 826 to the new CPH flight so it's together with the YYZ flight. The original flight to AMS moved to 808, and the poor MAN got thrown to the 900s. And after all this, the new YUL-AMS flight got a random 900 number, much like an afterthought.

DXB: I still don't get why YVR-DXB gets 78 rather than grouped with YYZ

Remember the 900s number, up to 920 or so are also open for European flights. AC will need even more European numbers when they receive the XLR, so many all the current 900 flights to Sun destination may be moved to the 1300s that was recently made available?

So this could happen if they decide to open the YVR flights:

ATH: YUL-AMS move to 806 to be together to YYZ, and YYZ-EDI move to 906 to be together with MAN, then YVR flight take the 900. Regardless of the YVR flight, the first part of the change make the whole thing a lot nicer, right?

FCO: YVR take the 888, and extra YYZ flight move to 902? I bet whoever come up with the new numbering never thought FCO will get more than a daily flight...

BCN: This one is tougher, but just look how AC managed to squeeze in the new CPH flight. Maybe AC will create a new Italian block, and move the VCE flights there?

But then, knowing AC, they probably just randomly pick a number... or maybe redo the entire European block next year or in 2025 to make room for XLR flights.

[LeftCoaster]

YVR-Europe is still an absolute shadow of itself and I really struggle to understand where all the passengers have gone (see below).

I guess some will be connecting through the east (YYZ/YUL) but that's terribly out of the way and adds a lot of time/connection risk for most of Europe. Surely WS is scooping a lot, but they haven't even added as much as YVR has lost, so it's really quite odd to me.

[thenoflyzone]

^
^

yeah it’s a bit weird they spend all that time reshuffling the numbers by destination, only for them to run out of room and it being out of whack again.

For sure the 900s are going to get used significantly in the coming years. I think all the XLRs with new routes to Europe are going to get mostly 900 numbers.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

YVR-Europe is still an absolute shadow of itself and I really struggle to understand where all the passengers have gone (see below).

I guess some will be connecting through the east (YYZ/YUL) but that's terribly out of the way and adds a lot of time/connection risk for most of Europe.

But according to Johnny, all is peachy!!! Lol

I think a huge chunk - at least the part that is a loyal Aeroplan member - is going through YYZ/YUL.

And I don’t see where the risk is? It’s a domestic to intl connection. There’s close to zero risk. If you miss your connection, AC should take care of you. Plus several routes to Europe from both YYZ and YUL are double daily, so they might rebook you on the later flight if there’s room.

Just like AC is hubbing most of Canada -East Asia traffic through YVR at the moment, they’re doing the same thing in reverse to Europe out of YYZ/YUL.

[LeftCoaster]

I know you work at the airport so I'm sure you saw the chaos at YUL last summer, similar to what was going on at YYZ and to a much lesser extent YVR. Ya sure AC will get ya there, but when, and will your bags even be on the same planet as you? Adding a connection just increases your odds of something going wrong.

I flew through YYZ on my way back from SCL a few months ago and it was a 12 hour delay in YYZ. It was miserable. I pay a LOT to avoid domestic transfers that have a large second leg. Last summer I paid roughly $1,000 more to fly YVR-MUC-ATH over YVR-YUL-ATH last summer to avoid that risk. Money well spent. Wish I had an option to do something similar flying south. Summer ops at YYZ/YUL are just so at capacity the frequency of IROPS is just too high, then add in the winter weather out east and its just not a great alternative.

Even when things go well, the process of flying 8 or 9 hours only to get on another 5 hour flight is just demoralizing, and when it's delayed is simply miserable.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

^
^

yeah it’s a bit weird they spend all that time reshuffling the numbers by destination, only for them to run out of room and it being out of whack again.

For sure the 900s are going to get used significantly in the coming years. I think all the XLRs are going to get mostly 900 numbers.

Might be a bad idea to have different range of flight number associated with aircraft type though. What if AC want to swap between 789 and XLR based on seasonal demand? Does that mean each of those route will have different flight number in summer and winter? That's a quick way to run out of number again, as if the mainline/Rouge/express split isn't enough.

Many years ago, the transit authority in Vancouver uses different route numbering scheme based on bus type. Then they figure out it's more cost effective to use regular bus during the day, and small shuttle bus at night and on weekends. But then it screw up their numbering scheme... So in the end, they have to renumber every shuttle route so they'll have one unify scheme.

I think it's more likely to renumber most European flights again in the coming years, maybe the more popular destination like LHR, CDG, FRA, etc uses the 800, and secondary destination uses 900? Much like how they split the 500/700/1000/1200 for the US routes. Although I still don't quite get which route uses the 500 number and which uses 1000, etc, and why YVR-IAH uses 1300 not 1298...

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

YVR-Europe is still an absolute shadow of itself and I really struggle to understand where all the passengers have gone (see below).

I guess some will be connecting through the east (YYZ/YUL) but that's terribly out of the way and adds a lot of time/connection risk for most of Europe. Surely WS is scooping a lot, but they haven't even added as much as YVR has lost, so it's really quite odd to me.

-22.8% is still aren't that bad, considering air traffic is still down overall. And the loss of seat is partially offset by fuller plane (and of course, higher fare).

Even Pacific is down big time if you ignore China... but, the plane is much much more full. YVR/YYZ-TPE just reported an average LF of about 95-98%, and this is during off-season. Consider before the pandemic when there was one more daily flights, but the LF was usually 65-80% during the same time period.

[Johnny Aussie]

^ agree that being down 22.9% ain’t all that bad
Most of YVR Europe traffic is O&D and therefore the true traffic flow is quite high.
Those euro carriers aren’t hubbing in YVR haha