Canadian Airport Thread

[People_talking]

Originally Posted by LO 044

I don't disagree with you. I think what I was getting at is that relatively speaking it could have been worse. And I agree it should be both WestJet and the Union sending out apologies to the passengers. It is both their faults.

And before people come on here saying it was WestJet's fault all along and the pilots can't make a living I call BS. I too am a "professional" and I too started out at $40k per year but I can tell you that no matter how many years I work at my company I will never make $200k let alone $300k so I have no sympathy for the pilots and I feel I get paid well and am happy. And companies do not pay you based on where you work unless you're working somewhere obscure up north so pilots arguing "oh but I have to live near YYZ or YVR". That makes no difference to any employer. If you want the benefits of Vancouver you will have to live in a bungalow versus a large home but that is the tradeoff but your choice. Luckily you have that choice. Most don't. You could try and rent an apartment near LHR. Good luck.

I’m more than certain that there’s a multitude of reasons that pilots are paid more than you.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Then I guess you should have become a pilot.

It was a thought. But too many ebs and flows to the economics of airlines for it to be a stable enough position for me. Not enough people look into the economics of what they wan to do for a living and then wonder, what this is all I get paid?

Originally Posted by People_talking

I’m more than certain that there’s a multitude of reasons that pilots are paid more than you.

Some pilots yes are paid more than me. How many? Who knows what the range is from $40k that pilots claim and $300k that WS claims. Supply and demand is the main reason. Let's hope the agreement has both sides happy but if the result is that it causes WS to raise ticket prices, they will lose customers and lower the need for flights and pilots.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by LO 044

WS to raise ticket prices, they will lose customers and lower the need for flights and pilots.

Please, westjet has gotten away with price gouging for years until Flair came along and other competition. But yes, they will lose customers especially in this economy where more and more people look at price rather than service, which is now mediocre at Westjet following Onex

[zahav]

Westjet has been mediocre since before Onex, they didn't cause it; maybe they have accelerated since the takeover, but they weren't the cause. The preference with some of WS being better than AC is more societal than reality. I started working in the airport right when AC's post 9-11 slump was in full effective, along with their bankruptcy saga. That created so much of public opinion that still lingers to this day, ie. AC having bitter old FA's, more problems with routes and aircraft, more disorganized, and plagued by labour issues and profitability. Well none of those are exclusive to AC anymore (and in fact, many don't even apply to AC anymore compared to WS). But much of the public, at least in Western Canada including BC btw, still put WS on more of a pedestal as an airline, for whatever reason. Despite the facts and reality, it's a reputation that has helped WS have an air of bitterness to AC in the West. Seems like that belief system stopped at the MB border though, given recent events of WS massively pulling back in the east. I'd wager it has something to do with the perception I wrote about above, and is only applicable in the west. Even when AC was crapping out in the early 2000s, the east never generated a WS equivalant out there. Lots tried, but didn't work (Jetsgo, Canjet, for example). AC continued to be dominant in the east even when in the west, people embraced WS far more during that period. And with the east being a way larger aviation market that the west, it's interesting that the East never had two dominant regional players side by side, the way it worked in the west.

Anyways, fully digressed there. The point is, WS has been mediocre for a long time, but it had a weird disconnect with reality where people in the west thought it was some vast improvement over AC. While there might have been a time that was partially true, it certainly hasn't been for the last ~15 years. But the reputation remains for some, especially in die-hard WS territory in AB, BC, and probably also the prairies. But it's been mediocre or — for a long time, way before Onex.

This is just my opinion on it, it isn't black and white and is very subjective. Perhaps Onex has accelerated the mediocrity, but it didn't start it IMO

[hehehe]

AC service I find to be significantly better than WS, but WS is much more convenient than AC for frequency and routes west of Thunder Bay (for the most part) besides YVR. WS service isn't that bad but it's certainly not like AC.

[casper]

Originally Posted by hehehe

AC service I find to be significantly better than WS, but WS is much more convenient than AC for frequency and routes west of Thunder Bay (for the most part) besides YVR. WS service isn't that bad but it's certainly not like AC.

Leading up to COVID I was flying mostly WS with the odd flight on AC. Since COVID came to an end it is been more balanced, but I am flying more AC.

WS staff use to be helpful. Not any more. Their airport staff can't rebook a flight, it is just painful.

[JakeLRS]

DEVELOPING: Swoop to be fully integrated into Westjet by October 2024

Source: City News

An agreement between WestJet and the union representing its pilots could mean the end of the budget airline Swoop.
Multiple sources tell CityNews one of the terms of the agreement between the airline and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is that Swoop must be fully integrated into WestJet by October 2024.
In a statement to CityNews, WestJet said because the agreement is not ratified, the finals terms can’t be discussed.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/05/22/n...ots-could-mean-the-end-of-swoop-sources/

--
Source: AvCanada

Integration of Swoop flight operations into WestJet mainline beginning with five (5) tail transfers in the fall of 2023. Full integration no later than October 2024
Orderly rebid based on seniority commencing in fall 2023
Pay protection and hourly rate increases for existing Swoop Pilots

_________

To be honest, If this is the case, I wouldn't be surprised. But this could be an impactful blow to YHM where swoop is a predominant player. Westjet only did a handful of flights from YHM prior to swoop, mainly in retaliation to Flair/Newleaf.

[kattiff]

Originally Posted by casper

Leading up to COVID I was flying mostly WS with the odd flight on AC. Since COVID came to an end it is been more balanced, but I am flying more AC.

WS staff use to be helpful. Not any more. Their airport staff can't rebook a flight, it is just painful.

That’s the truth. It’s because WestJet fired all the counter agents across Canada except in the four main cities YVR YYC YEG YYZ (they blamed it on Covid, I think it was Onyx cutting costs and they found the prefect opportunity)

They are all contract, out source employees that only learned basic things and don’t care because they don’t actually work for the actual airline.
It’s very tough to fly on WestJet as the agents just don’t know what they are doing anymore

[Coldrsx]

Holy — is YHZ is far from downtown Halifax (and yes, this coming from a former Edmontonian).

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Holy — is YHZ is far from downtown Halifax (and yes, this coming from a former Edmontonian).

It's crazy how far it is. And you pass about 100 different plots of land that would have been just as good for an airport. My guess is someone had an inside track on that land deal back in the day....

YHZ is the only place I've ever missed a flight. Was cutting it close then VERY slow cab driver combined with some fog and I turned up 29 minutes before my flight. They wouldn't let me check in then I got to sit and watch my fog-delayed flight sit on the tarmac for the next 2+ hours!

[Coldrsx]

Got to take this gem from YYC-YHZ.

Man o man I love the A220 and the 2-3 layout is the best.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by zahav

Westjet has been mediocre since before Onex, they didn't cause it; maybe they have accelerated since the takeover, but they weren't the cause. The preference with some of WS being better than AC is more societal than reality. I started working in the airport right when AC's post 9-11 slump was in full effective, along with their bankruptcy saga. That created so much of public opinion that still lingers to this day, ie. AC having bitter old FA's, more problems with routes and aircraft, more disorganized, and plagued by labour issues and profitability. Well none of those are exclusive to AC anymore (and in fact, many don't even apply to AC anymore compared to WS). But much of the public, at least in Western Canada including BC btw, still put WS on more of a pedestal as an airline, for whatever reason. Despite the facts and reality, it's a reputation that has helped WS have an air of bitterness to AC in the West. Seems like that belief system stopped at the MB border though, given recent events of WS massively pulling back in the east. I'd wager it has something to do with the perception I wrote about above, and is only applicable in the west. Even when AC was crapping out in the early 2000s, the east never generated a WS equivalant out there. Lots tried, but didn't work (Jetsgo, Canjet, for example). AC continued to be dominant in the east even when in the west, people embraced WS far more during that period. And with the east being a way larger aviation market that the west, it's interesting that the East never had two dominant regional players side by side, the way it worked in the west.

Anyways, fully digressed there. The point is, WS has been mediocre for a long time, but it had a weird disconnect with reality where people in the west thought it was some vast improvement over AC. While there might have been a time that was partially true, it certainly hasn't been for the last ~15 years. But the reputation remains for some, especially in die-hard WS territory in AB, BC, and probably also the prairies. But it's been mediocre or — for a long time, way before Onex.

This is just my opinion on it, it isn't black and white and is very subjective. Perhaps Onex has accelerated the mediocrity, but it didn't start it IMO

I couldn't have said it better myself and I agree with every one of your points.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

DEVELOPING: Swoop to be fully integrated into Westjet by October 2024

Source: City News

An agreement between WestJet and the union representing its pilots could mean the end of the budget airline Swoop.
Multiple sources tell CityNews one of the terms of the agreement between the airline and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is that Swoop must be fully integrated into WestJet by October 2024.
In a statement to CityNews, WestJet said because the agreement is not ratified, the finals terms can’t be discussed.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/05/22/n...ots-could-mean-the-end-of-swoop-sources/

--
Source: AvCanada

Integration of Swoop flight operations into WestJet mainline beginning with five (5) tail transfers in the fall of 2023. Full integration no later than October 2024
Orderly rebid based on seniority commencing in fall 2023
Pay protection and hourly rate increases for existing Swoop Pilots

_________

To be honest, If this is the case, I wouldn't be surprised. But this could be an impactful blow to YHM where swoop is a predominant player. Westjet only did a handful of flights from YHM prior to swoop, mainly in retaliation to Flair/Newleaf.

Except in the extreme short-term, if WS were to bail again at YHM to largely just YYC, I think this time Lynx and/or Flair would pounce. Different market dynamics this time around.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Except in the extreme short-term, if WS were to bail again at YHM to largely just YYC, I think this time Lynx and/or Flair would pounce. Different market dynamics this time around.

I think they have managed to create a major connecting hub in Calgary. That is filling seats to Europe and the one flight to Asia. The flights are deliberaly timed around connecting passengers.

What I think makes sense now is take the Swoop flights convert them to WestJet branding with a few business class seats in the front. Still focus that on point-to-point with the option of connections if it works out. That is what they continue to do in Hamilton, Abbotsford and Toronto.

They have an excellent lounge in Calgary. The Vancouver contract lounges are fairly good. Not a fan of the contract lounges in Toronto but they are ok.

Flying mostly out of Victoria I usually find WestJet is slightly cheaper than AC most of the time but the cost is very close. The biggest problem with both are flight timing and connections. If the swoop flights were available for onward connections that would decently help make more options available.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

Please, westjet has gotten away with price gouging for years until Flair came along and other competition. But yes, they will lose customers especially in this economy where more and more people look at price rather than service, which is now mediocre at Westjet following Onex

It has been suggested that Flair is able to offer those fares because they are not following the same rules as others...

You'd have to be pretty stupid as a pilot to take your in-demand skills to an outfit like Flair rather than AC, Westjet or even US carriers.

[whatnext]

Interesting:

New agreement with WestJet pilots could mean the end of Swoop: sources
By Richard Southern

Posted May 22, 2023, 8:02AM EDT.Last Updated May 22, 2023, 8:05PM EDT.
An agreement between WestJet and the union representing its pilots could mean the end of the budget airline Swoop.

Multiple sources tell CityNews one of the terms of the agreement between the airline and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is that Swoop must be fully integrated into WestJet by October 2024.

In a statement to CityNews, WestJet said because the agreement is not ratified, the finals terms can’t be discussed....

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/05/22/n...ots-could-mean-the-end-of-swoop-sources/

[hemustbeaboss]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Interesting:

New agreement with WestJet pilots could mean the end of Swoop: sources
By Richard Southern

Posted May 22, 2023, 8:02AM EDT.Last Updated May 22, 2023, 8:05PM EDT.
An agreement between WestJet and the union representing its pilots could mean the end of the budget airline Swoop.

Multiple sources tell CityNews one of the terms of the agreement between the airline and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is that Swoop must be fully integrated into WestJet by October 2024.

In a statement to CityNews, WestJet said because the agreement is not ratified, the finals terms can’t be discussed....

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/05/22/n...ots-could-mean-the-end-of-swoop-sources/

I would be surprised if we actually see the dissapearence of the "pink tails"

The agreement seems to indicate that the pilots that fly Swoop will be under the same contract as the pilots who fly for WJA. So the planes would just exist, but the pilots would be under better operating conditions.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by hemustbeaboss

I would be surprised if we actually see the dissapearence of the "pink tails"

The agreement seems to indicate that the pilots that fly Swoop will be under the same contract as the pilots who fly for WJA. So the planes would just exist, but the pilots would be under better operating conditions.

The whole purpose of Swoop is to be a low cost carrier and if the new CBA makes them not so low cost, their reason for existence goes away. Sure, the planes might still exist, they will just become WS planes again if WS needs them.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The whole purpose of Swoop is to be a low cost carrier and if the new CBA makes them not so low cost, their reason for existence goes away. Sure, the planes might still exist, they will just become WS planes again if WS needs them.

It was mentioned in the YHM forum that they could do what Flair/Newleaf originally did. Still continue to have Swoop has a brand but have all flights operated by Westjet. Although I'd imagine this won't happen given that its well established that Swoop is indeed Westjet and I'd suspect Westjet would want to protect its brand.

[nname]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It has been suggested that Flair is able to offer those fares because they are not following the same rules as others...

You'd have to be pretty stupid as a pilot to take your in-demand skills to an outfit like Flair rather than AC, Westjet or even US carriers.

Well, I'm pretty sure all the payscales for different airlines are available somewhere on the internet. If the chart I saw in another forum is correct, then I think I know why some of them go to Flair instead of WS

But why would any pilot want to go to Swoop though... It seems to be lowest paid out of any airline in Canada...