Canadian Airport Thread

[nname]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

I also thought YXU-YYC/YVR was year-round before as well...

Maybe nname has some details here...

That's how Flair do schedule... Publish an initial version that fit so perfectly you thought it's the final version. Then they start adding new routes, and cutting existing route and make a bunch of holes in their schedule. Then a few months before the actual service, move everything around to make things fit again. This happened every season.

They recently added daily YUL-FLL and YUL-SFB. Since YUL is not a base, the flight must come from somewhere, right? In this case, most likely the YYZ/YKF/YOW cuts go there.

Another thing is they completely removed SJD for this winter. I guess there will be some new route from YVR as well. Before the cut, YVR schedule was 100% full for W23.

They also cut a bunch of YXX service, so no idea where those service go. But YXX base was reduced to only 1 plane for S23, likely it will stay 1 plane for W23.

And YXU was never planned to be year-round. At least they never have YXU scheduled for winter.

So a full list of cuts:

YUL-YEG

YKF-YHZ
YKF-YWG
YKF-YXX

YYC-YXE
YYC-SJD

YYZ-JFK

YEG-YKA
YEG-LAX
YEG-SJD

YVR-YOW
YVR-SJD

YXX-PVR
YXX-SJD

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by nname

That's how Flair do schedule... Publish an initial version that fit so perfectly you thought it's the final version. Then they start adding new routes, and cutting existing route and make a bunch of holes in their schedule. Then a few months before the actual service, move everything around to make things fit again. This happened every season.

They recently added daily YUL-FLL and YUL-SFB. Since YUL is not a base, the flight must come from somewhere, right? In this case, most likely the YYZ/YKF/YOW cuts go there.

Another thing is they completely removed SJD for this winter. I guess there will be some new route from YVR as well. Before the cut, YVR schedule was 100% full for W23.

They also cut a bunch of YXX service, so no idea where those service go. But YXX base was reduced to only 1 plane for S23, likely it will stay 1 plane for W23.

And YXU was never planned to be year-round. At least they never have YXU scheduled for winter.

So a full list of cuts:

YUL-YEG

YKF-YHZ
YKF-YWG
YKF-YXX

YYC-YXE
YYC-SJD

YYZ-JFK

YEG-YKA
YEG-LAX
YEG-SJD

YVR-YOW
YVR-SJD

YXX-PVR
YXX-SJD

Surprised to see YOW-YVR cut for the winter. Means only YYC & YHZ will be the only two winter domestic routes out of YOW. I would bet, except for maybe YEG-YKA, all the domestic routes are being converted to seasonal along with the previously planned seasonal suspensions. YYZ-JFK & YEG-LAX are probably 50/50 chance of returning next summer.

Looks like Flair are finally understanding seasonality.

[zahav]

Porter up to 5x daily YVR in the summer, I forgot how many it started with, but I think less than 5x daily? All the routes seem to be doing well, just gains I believe on all routes? Very different strategy than Flair lol and probably in part to their establishing out east first and not just coming out of the gate 🞵🞵🞵🞵 blazing. That restraint and patience will bode well for them I think.

Has anyone been to China in the last 6 months? What is it like there now, are they where we are in terms of Covid protocol, or is it still really strict? It's wild that there is still such minimal service to China (not just from Canada, from everywhere). I wonder when (or if) they plan to get back to pre pandemic service levels, or if this more restricted access is going to stay. If the level of closure and restriction was in any other country still, there'd be uproar. China can control that, so doesn't care

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by zahav

Porter up to 5x daily YVR in the summer, I forgot how many it started with, but I think less than 5x daily? All the routes seem to be doing well, just gains I believe on all routes? Very different strategy than Flair lol and probably in part to their establishing out east first and not just coming out of the gate 🞵🞵🞵🞵 blazing. That restraint and patience will bode well for them I think.

Has anyone been to China in the last 6 months? What is it like there now, are they where we are in terms of Covid protocol, or is it still really strict? It's wild that there is still such minimal service to China (not just from Canada, from everywhere). I wonder when (or if) they plan to get back to pre pandemic service levels, or if this more restricted access is going to stay. If the level of closure and restriction was in any other country still, there'd be uproar. China can control that, so doesn't care

Gains of 1x each on the western routes only on June 1st and then the fifth YVR on 09AUG23. 1 YUL-YYZ will still be on the Dash 8.

[zahav]

Gotcha, thanks! Wasn't sure the exact increases, but was fairly sure it was increases across the board. Flair will feel a pinch, and I have no idea what Lynx is surviving on, there are only so many domestic routes to attempt, and chances are one or more competitors are operating the routes already. But best of luck to all of them, it's nice having the competition. Just skeptical about the long term viability of all these carriers. Even the US, with over 8 times our population and many more large cities, only has 3 main legacy carriers (American, Delta, and United), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Alaska, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, JetBlue). Canada essentially has two legacy carriers (AC & WS), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Lynx, Flair, Porter, Air Transat, Swoop), plus the super regional ones like Air North, Canadian North, Air Inuit, etc. So we aren't far off the US in terms of number of national airlines, despite a vastly smaller population, and way less populated cities. I feel like AC and WS will take out Lynx and Flair eventually, but I think there's room for Porter, especially seeing how conservative they are. I mean come on, if WS couldn't even maintain a base at YYZ, by far the largest and most important airport in the country, then that says something about how much demand and capacity there really is domestically. Like I said, I wish all of them luck and welcome the healthy competition, but just being realistic. There ain't a lot of untapped route pairings to go for, so the path to success is limited.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by zahav

Gotcha, thanks! Wasn't sure the exact increases, but was fairly sure it was increases across the board. Flair will feel a pinch, and I have no idea what Lynx is surviving on, there are only so many domestic routes to attempt, and chances are one or more competitors are operating the routes already. But best of luck to all of them, it's nice having the competition. Just skeptical about the long term viability of all these carriers. Even the US, with over 8 times our population and many more large cities, only has 3 main legacy carriers (American, Delta, and United), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Alaska, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, JetBlue). Canada essentially has two legacy carriers (AC & WS), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Lynx, Flair, Porter, Air Transat, Swoop), plus the super regional ones like Air North, Canadian North, Air Inuit, etc. So we aren't far off the US in terms of number of national airlines, despite a vastly smaller population, and way less populated cities. I feel like AC and WS will take out Lynx and Flair eventually, but I think there's room for Porter, especially seeing how conservative they are. I mean come on, if WS couldn't even maintain a base at YYZ, by far the largest and most important airport in the country, then that says something about how much demand and capacity there really is domestically. Like I said, I wish all of them luck and welcome the healthy competition, but just being realistic. There ain't a lot of untapped route pairings to go for, so the path to success is limited.

You forgot a really big one in the states. Not feeling the LUV?

There’s also the likes of Sun Country and Avelo growing in the USA too.

There’s definitely room for Porter to have a national presence vs its traditionally regional.

[Dominion301]

Reading the news/info from the YOW annual public meeting was really interesting: https://yow.ca/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/2023-annual-public-meeting-formal-remarks

Highlights: cargo has grown substantially as 5T alone now haul 30,000 metric tonnes annually up north.

We continue to work with Germain Hotels to find a way to move the Alt Hotel Ottawa Airport project forward. This project is a vital element, though not the only one, in our quest to become a hub airport that serves more connecting traffic as opposed to the 97% origin and destination traffic we currently serve. Airport-connected hotels are highly desirable and expected of a world-class hub airport.

We also continue to work with the Mayor and City Council to explore opportunities to assist Y-O-W in the development of new international routes. I think we all recognize the importance of international air connectivity to our City’s economy by providing enhanced access for business travellers and inbound tourists alike.

97% O&D in 2022. In pre-2020 it was in the 94% range. With PD connecting traffic over YOW, this will fall. For the first time ever, they talk about building a hub at YOW. It shows they’re working hard on getting PD to have a true hub operating at YOW vs a large focus city. Without a hub, the likes of SFO, LAX and PHX aren’t feasible on O&D alone.

[peytol]

Originally Posted by zahav

Gotcha, thanks! Wasn't sure the exact increases, but was fairly sure it was increases across the board. Flair will feel a pinch, and I have no idea what Lynx is surviving on, there are only so many domestic routes to attempt, and chances are one or more competitors are operating the routes already. But best of luck to all of them, it's nice having the competition. Just skeptical about the long term viability of all these carriers. Even the US, with over 8 times our population and many more large cities, only has 3 main legacy carriers (American, Delta, and United), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Alaska, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, JetBlue). Canada essentially has two legacy carriers (AC & WS), and then 5 or so smaller and/or regional and/or low cost carriers (Lynx, Flair, Porter, Air Transat, Swoop), plus the super regional ones like Air North, Canadian North, Air Inuit, etc. So we aren't far off the US in terms of number of national airlines, despite a vastly smaller population, and way less populated cities. I feel like AC and WS will take out Lynx and Flair eventually, but I think there's room for Porter, especially seeing how conservative they are. I mean come on, if WS couldn't even maintain a base at YYZ, by far the largest and most important airport in the country, then that says something about how much demand and capacity there really is domestically. Like I said, I wish all of them luck and welcome the healthy competition, but just being realistic. There ain't a lot of untapped route pairings to go for, so the path to success is limited.

I really hope Porter does well and forces AC and WJ to step up their service, but I wouldn't say taking 50 E2's in two years is conservative at all. To me it actually seems extremely risky.

Porters website says 50 E2's in 2022-2023, does anyone know if that is still accurate? I actually cant see how taking another 30-40 planes in the next 8 months is possible. Really seems like Embraer has no where else to send them and is just dumping the whole production line on Porter, for a great price I'd imagine.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by zahav

Porter up to 5x daily YVR in the summer, I forgot how many it started with, but I think less than 5x daily? All the routes seem to be doing well, just gains I believe on all routes? Very different strategy than Flair lol and probably in part to their establishing out east first and not just coming out of the gate 🞵🞵🞵🞵 blazing. That restraint and patience will bode well for them I think.

Has anyone been to China in the last 6 months? What is it like there now, are they where we are in terms of Covid protocol, or is it still really strict? It's wild that there is still such minimal service to China (not just from Canada, from everywhere). I wonder when (or if) they plan to get back to pre pandemic service levels, or if this more restricted access is going to stay. If the level of closure and restriction was in any other country still, there'd be uproar. China can control that, so doesn't care

Had a >24 hour stop over from NRT -> DXB recently in Hong Kong. Went out to see the city. No COVID restrictions, masks, etc. Just a temperature check. Not sure what would have happened if I had a fever though.

[thenoflyzone]

YQR posted 2022 numbers:

764,128 +115.0%

YYT did so as well, although they don't seem to put the exact figure in their annual report, only percentage increases, nor do they issue a press release with more info. These Newfoundlanders need to stop kissing fish and publish proper numbers for god's sake !

~1,099,392 +130%

YTZ has also published its 2022 number. Moves up 7 spots, back to 9th busiest in the country, as in 2019.

1.732 million +514% (new #1 % increase, by a long shot! Of course, it's to be expected, since Porter canceled all ops during the pandemic, and resumed Sept 2021. Because of this YTZ only handled 282,000 pax in 2021)

[Dominion301]

Porter have just announced their first non-YYZ jet route: YOW-YVR once daily starting 26JUL23
YVR-YOW 0745-1603
YOW-YVR 1800-1937

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/po...on-stop-route-from-ottawa-810997677.html

The scheduled service will connect with Charlottetown, Halifax, Moncton, New York, Toronto-Pearson, Toronto-City and Thunder Bay through Ottawa.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Porter have just announced their first non-YYZ jet route: YOW-YVR once daily starting 26JUL23
YVR-YOW 0745-1603
YOW-YVR 1800-1937

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/po...on-stop-route-from-ottawa-810997677.html

Now, on the Porter route map, instead of showing YVR-YOW, it adds YVR-YQT and YVR-EWR

Note the flight number is PD262/267, suggests that more than a daily flight is planned eventually.

Also, current schedule suggests that there will be at most 3 porter planes at YVR at the same time every evening. What will porter planning to do with them? Just lying them around until the late night departure or the next morning? Or they really planning to add a red-eye to YQT and EWR?

Randomly picked a schedule on Aug 11:

YOW	YYZ	YVR	YVR	YYZ	YOW
			0745 ->	1515
			0745 ->		1603
	0735 ->	0941	1045 ->	1815
	1015 ->	1221	1345 ->	2115
	1300 ->	1506	1600 ->	2330
	1720 ->	1926
1800 ->		1937
	2100 ->	2306
			2315 ->	0645+1

12 hours on the ground at YVR for one of the YYZ/YOW plane is quite low aircraft utilization. There must be some better use for it?

[casper]

Originally Posted by nname

Now, on the Porter route map, instead of showing YVR-YOW, it adds YVR-YQT and YVR-EWR

Note the flight number is PD262/267, suggests that more than a daily flight is planned eventually.

Also, current schedule suggests that there will be at most 3 porter planes at YVR at the same time every evening. What will porter planning to do with them? Just lying them around until the late night departure or the next morning? Or they really planning to add a red-eye to YQT and EWR?

Randomly picked a schedule on Aug 11:

YOW	YYZ	YVR	YVR	YYZ	YOW
			0745 ->	1515
			0745 ->		1603
	0735 ->	0941	1045 ->	1815
	1015 ->	1221	1345 ->	2115
	1300 ->	1506	1600 ->	2330
	1720 ->	1926
1800 ->		1937
	2100 ->	2306
			2315 ->	0645+1

12 hours on the ground at YVR for one of the YYZ/YOW plane is quite low aircraft utilization. There must be some better use for it?

Maybe do a turn down to Las Vegas or something else that they can easily sell in the Vancouver market.

[thenoflyzone]

Added 2022 aircraft movement numbers for top 31 airports in the country. (source: StatsCan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_Canada

YYZ is once again the busiest in the country, after losing that title 2 years in a row due to the pandemic. Boundary bay, which was the title holder for 2020 and 2021, drops to 3rd busiest in 2022.

Obviously, pretty much every single airport that sees mostly commercial traffic has huge gains in the rankings.

Biggest increase in ranking belongs to YOW (+12 spots), YUL, YTZ (+8 spots), YYC, YEG, YQT, YQM (+5 spots).

Biggest losers are YRC (-11 spots), YXE, YOO (-7 spots), YMX (-5), YBW (-4).

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Added 2022 aircraft movement numbers for top 31 airports in the country. (source: StatsCan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_Canada

YYZ is once again the busiest in the country, after losing that title 2 years in a row due to the pandemic. Boundary bay, which was the title holder for 2020 and 2021, drops to 3rd busiest in 2022.

Obviously, pretty much every single airport that sees mostly commercial traffic has huge gains in the rankings.

Biggest increase in ranking belongs to YOW (+12 spots), YUL, YTZ (+8 spots), YYC, YEG, YQT, YQM (+5 spots).

Biggest losers are YRC (-11 spots), YXE, YOO (-7 spots), YMX (-5), YBW (-4).

I always find it funny that it listed 31 airports when the title says Top 30.

I guess you have to gather data by selecting the airport one by one from the StatCan site. If that's the case, I think you missed one... CXH (Vancouver Harbour) should be #30 this year assuming no other airports were missed. Or.. maybe you don't considered that being an "airport" because there's no fixed runway, etc?

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by casper

Maybe do a turn down to Las Vegas or something else that they can easily sell in the Vancouver market.

That would time out crew. Until they have a crew base in Vancouver, it will likely just be poor utilization.

Wonder if adding the hop to Victoria changes anything.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

That would time out crew. Until they have a crew base in Vancouver, it will likely just be poor utilization.

Wonder if adding the hop to Victoria changes anything.

Hop to Victoria would be greatly appreciated.

WestJet, Alaska, and Air Canada have are fully booked. The Swoop and Flair offering is useless most days/destinations I want to travel. A real airline would be a positive.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by casper

Maybe do a turn down to Las Vegas or something else that they can easily sell in the Vancouver market.

It's pretty much only 1 aircraft with the low utilization. Looking at:
1720 -> 1926 -> becomes the YYZ redeye - on the ground about 4 hours (can also be a RON)
1800 -> 1937 -> YOW or YYZ RON - on the ground ~12 hours (can also do the red-eye).
2100 -> 2306 -> YOW or YYZ RON

Unless PD want to do some intra-regional western flying, which is not yet in their business plan, not much you can do with the 4 hours (YLW would be the limit distance wise and what's the point?).

True the YOW arrival could do a western leisure destination, but that wouldn't happen until LAS and PHX are on the map from the east, if ever. Zmonkey mentioned the crew issues too. Would need a couple extra hotel rooms for an extra crew.

The one aircraft with the long RON will certainly help with western IROPS recovery.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

It's pretty much only 1 aircraft with the low utilization. Looking at:
1720 -> 1926 -> becomes the YYZ redeye - on the ground about 4 hours (can also be a RON)
1800 -> 1937 -> YOW or YYZ RON - on the ground ~12 hours (can also do the red-eye).
2100 -> 2306 -> YOW or YYZ RON

Unless PD want to do some intra-regional western flying, which is not yet in their business plan, not much you can do with the 4 hours (YLW would be the limit distance wise and what's the point?).

True the YOW arrival could do a western leisure destination, but that wouldn't happen until LAS and PHX are on the map from the east, if ever. Zmonkey mentioned the crew issues too. Would need a couple extra hotel rooms for an extra crew.

The one aircraft with the long RON will certainly help with western IROPS recovery.

Well, either way they will need hotel room, or a YVR crew base for those 2 RON planes. The 12 hour ones may be enough for crew rest (?), but the 8 hour will definitely need a different crew.

What's surprising is that for the new YOW flight, I thought it would be operating with either one of the following pattern with YYZ or YOW crew:
(YYZ-)YOW-YVR-YOW(-YYZ)
YYZ-YVR-YOW-YYZ
YYZ-YOW-YVR-YYZ

But instead, it will be operating as YVR-YOW-YVR (with YVR crew??). Unless they are adding more short-haul E2 routes from YOW, there is no other E2 at YOW during the YOW arrival/departure time.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, either way they will need hotel room, or a YVR crew base for those 2 RON planes. The 12 hour ones may be enough for crew rest (?), but the 8 hour will definitely need a different crew.

What's surprising is that for the new YOW flight, I thought it would be operating with either one of the following pattern with YYZ or YOW crew:
(YYZ-)YOW-YVR-YOW(-YYZ)
YYZ-YVR-YOW-YYZ
YYZ-YOW-YVR-YYZ

But instead, it will be operating as YVR-YOW-YVR (with YVR crew??). Unless they are adding more short-haul E2 routes from YOW, there is no other E2 at YOW during the YOW arrival/departure time.

Porter would need to grow YVR substantially in order to make it a base. The schedule they have pretty much requires a hotel after each flight as a turn back east would push duty limits and risk timing out with a delay. Their schedule makes it very easy to to that. Right now PD’s only jet base is YYZ for pilots. YTZ, YOW, YHZ and YQT are Dash 8 bases, but not sure if all those bases are both pilots and F/As.