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View Poll Results: Would you like to separate this thread for individual station projects?
Yes 19 31.15%
No 42 68.85%
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  #3961  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2023, 11:33 PM
mcj mcj is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
It really depends whether there is room for an adjacent RoW under the adjacent Clarkson Street).

I think the platforms must be longer than the width of the Boucher Centre property, so the question is whether they would need to acquire more adjacent properties.
Well you've got the Carnarvon Place Towers adjacent to the north of the property, and the Queen's Hotel and the Met adjacent to the south. If they want to expand the footprint of the station itself, that means at least one of those has got to go.
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  #3962  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2023, 11:48 PM
officedweller officedweller is online now
 
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Originally Posted by mcj View Post
Well you've got the Carnarvon Place Towers adjacent to the north of the property, and the Queen's Hotel and the Met adjacent to the south. If they want to expand the footprint of the station itself, that means at least one of those has got to go.
This is all I could come up with - Posted Feb 2020.
... a 3rd side-platform to the east under Clarkson St. connected by a walkway to the existing station.

The other alternative would be to move the whole station to the east 2 blocks and
buy out the rest of that block where Stefanos is located for an expanded station,
but the purchase of the Boucher Building nixes that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Ultimately, Columbia needs a 3rd platform so that Braid and Sapperton can be served off a branch of the Millennium Line terminating at Columbia without interfering with Expo Line trains. That will help with capacity when it's extended to Langley.

There may be space under Clarkson St. to the east with some expropriation/property acquisition, for a siding and platform,
with an underground passage across the street to the old station (maybe even a branch passage under the Expo guideway to the eastbound platform).
The 3rd platform would probably have to be deeper than Columbia Station, which is really a trenched station.
With all the driveways in the area, the tunnel and station would probably have to be mined
(maybe even with buildings above remaining in place since they wouldn't have deep underground garages)
Longer transfer for Coquitlam<->Surrey, but probably shorter than at Commercial Broadway.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Clarks...332bccfa!8m2!3d49.2050187!4d-122.9058078
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  #3963  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 2:07 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by greenturnedblue View Post
Hopefully it is something to do with running the Expo line straight through Waterfront-Langley, and the sapperton-braid segment becomes a spur of the millennium line. Wishful thinking perhaps
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Originally Posted by mcj View Post
And how would you consider doing that? Considering that the 200 metre tunnel between Columbia Station and surface would need to be expanded to isolate the trains.
It's not written in stone that you have to provide service between Columbia and Sapperton. Millenium line trains that take the Sapperton spur could just turn around at Sapperton and never have to interact with the Expo line.

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular, but if congestion in on the Expo line south of the Fraser gets bad enough it's an option.
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  #3964  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 2:16 AM
madog222 madog222 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
It's not written in stone that you have to provide service between Columbia and Sapperton. Millenium line trains that take the Sapperton spur could just turn around at Sapperton and never have to interact with the Expo line.

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular, but if congestion in on the Expo line south of the Fraser gets bad enough it's an option.
How would one get from Surrey to Lougheed?
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  #3965  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 6:23 AM
scottN scottN is offline
 
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I think the westbound track from the Millenium line could be rebuilt so it rises up above grade, crosses 4th as an elevated viaduct and goes to a new platform built above the existing columbia station platforms. Perhaps you could even do the same with the eastbound track. This approach overcomes the limited horizontal space by stacking the tracks on top of one another.

Or the new tracks could be deep in a deeper tunnel, possible going under the buildings to the east or under columbia street and connecting to the M line further east inside the existing woodland tunnel.
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  #3966  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
It's not written in stone that you have to provide service between Columbia and Sapperton. Millenium line trains that take the Sapperton spur could just turn around at Sapperton and never have to interact with the Expo line.

I'm sure it wouldn't be popular, but if congestion in on the Expo line south of the Fraser gets bad enough it's an option.
So if you want to go from Surrey to Coquitlam you either have to transfer to a bus or go the long way around? That's baffling that you'd even think removing service between Columbia and Sapperton would be a thing.
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  #3967  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottN View Post
I think the westbound track from the Millenium line could be rebuilt so it rises up above grade, crosses 4th as an elevated viaduct and goes to a new platform built above the existing columbia station platforms. Perhaps you could even do the same with the eastbound track. This approach overcomes the limited horizontal space by stacking the tracks on top of one another.
So it would completely eliminate Clarkson Street, which residents of towers on Clarkson Street use to get to their parkades? I'm guessing you're just saying this because you've looked at a map and don't actually know the geography of the area.
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  #3968  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 5:27 PM
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I could be misremembering, but I thought that one of TransLink's long-term plans suggests that at some point between 2030-2050 the Expo Line fork to Production Way would be extended to Arbutus. I believe the discussions here were that it would give extra capacity on the Broadway line without oversupplying the Coquitlam extension. If that's accurate, then service would have to remain between Columbia and Sapperton (and beyond).
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  #3969  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 6:56 PM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
So if you want to go from Surrey to Coquitlam you either have to transfer to a bus or go the long way around? That's baffling that you'd even think removing service between Columbia and Sapperton would be a thing.
There are lots of routes that people would love to be able to take Skytrain for that just don't have enough volume to justify the cost of building it. If capacity pressures on the Expo line get high enough and the number of riders between Lougheed and Columbia is small enough, then I can see it being sacrificed. I will readily admit that those are big "ifs", but I don't think that you should summarily dismiss the possibility out of hand.
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  #3970  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 7:24 PM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
There are lots of routes that people would love to be able to take Skytrain for that just don't have enough volume to justify the cost of building it. If capacity pressures on the Expo line get high enough and the number of riders between Lougheed and Columbia is small enough, then I can see it being sacrificed. I will readily admit that those are big "ifs", but I don't think that you should summarily dismiss the possibility out of hand.
Every skytrain line starts off with a B-line first so they can give people living along the general corridor a taste of rapid transit.
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  #3971  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 7:27 PM
dpogue dpogue is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
There are lots of routes that people would love to be able to take Skytrain for that just don't have enough volume to justify the cost of building it. If capacity pressures on the Expo line get high enough and the number of riders between Lougheed and Columbia is small enough, then I can see it being sacrificed. I will readily admit that those are big "ifs", but I don't think that you should summarily dismiss the possibility out of hand.
Cutting service between Columbia and Sapperton seems unlikely due to being the connecting route between SFU Burnaby (at Production Way) and SFU Surrey (at Surrey Central).

The whole reason the Expo Line goes to Production Way rather than just Lougheed (as originally envisioned, and where the switched to turn back is much much easier) is due to students headed for SFU.
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  #3972  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2023, 9:13 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpogue View Post
Cutting service between Columbia and Sapperton seems unlikely due to being the connecting route between SFU Burnaby (at Production Way) and SFU Surrey (at Surrey Central).

The whole reason the Expo Line goes to Production Way rather than just Lougheed (as originally envisioned, and where the switched to turn back is much much easier) is due to students headed for SFU.
Not just students but SFU employees as well.

People tend to forget how much of an influence the major universities have on the region's transit systems and the local economies of the areas around them that they're located on.

See UBC and the Broadway Skytrain Extension, - which probably wouldn't be happening if it didn't have the pull of UBC students and workers partly justifying it.

Whenever you have something like a university or a college like those 2 (or even VCC on the VCC-Arbutus line), at the end or beginning of a route, you have already have some of the built-in ridership onthe route that you need to justify getting it built or extended.

It's a large part of the reason why UBC themselves offered to help fund part of the construction to have the UBC line go all the way to UBC and not just end at Arbutus (for this phase), when it was first proposed.
Because they know it's their students and workers who will be the overwhelmingly major beneficiaries of such an extension.
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  #3973  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2023, 12:57 AM
officedweller officedweller is online now
 
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Cutting the Columbia - Sapperton segment is a non-starter.
It is a core element of the 'T-Line' in the 1996 Livable Region Strategic Plan that encourages travel between municipal town centres. It provides the suburb to suburb cross-region connection that even greater Toronto does not have (ie a circle/periphery line).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
So it would completely eliminate Clarkson Street, which residents of towers on Clarkson Street use to get to their parkades? I'm guessing you're just saying this because you've looked at a map and don't actually know the geography of the area.
You could dig deep using mining techniques with a road deck like on Broadway now with restoration afterwards.
There would be disruption during construction of course.
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  #3974  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2023, 6:27 AM
scottN scottN is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
So it would completely eliminate Clarkson Street, which residents of towers on Clarkson Street use to get to their parkades? I'm guessing you're just saying this because you've looked at a map and don't actually know the geography of the area.
I've been there in person and I do agree that this route is improbable. A tunnel under columbia street seems much more likely, and it aligns with Translink's purchase of the Boucher Centre.
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  #3975  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2023, 6:57 AM
madog222 madog222 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by scottN View Post
A tunnel under columbia street seems much more likely, and it aligns with Translink's purchase of the Boucher Centre.
I never considered that. It definitely does look possible to build from a track perspective but there are a lot of utilities under Columbia including the New Westminster Interceptor force main.
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  #3976  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2023, 10:51 PM
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SFUVancouver SFUVancouver is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
Not just students but SFU employees as well.

People tend to forget how much of an influence the major universities have on the region's transit systems and the local economies of the areas around them that they're located on.

See UBC and the Broadway Skytrain Extension, - which probably wouldn't be happening if it didn't have the pull of UBC students and workers partly justifying it.

Whenever you have something like a university or a college like those 2 (or even VCC on the VCC-Arbutus line), at the end or beginning of a route, you have already have some of the built-in ridership onthe route that you need to justify getting it built or extended.

It's a large part of the reason why UBC themselves offered to help fund part of the construction to have the UBC line go all the way to UBC and not just end at Arbutus (for this phase), when it was first proposed.
Because they know it's their students and workers who will be the overwhelmingly major beneficiaries of such an extension.
Indeed. For all the inconvenience that UBC represents way off on the west side of the region and SFU way up in the northeast, it is a transit planner's dream to have a strong trip generator at the end of a line, or at/near a major interchange station. YVR serves a similar function, albeit at a reduced scale, but they put their money where their mouths were and wrote a cheque for $300 million, about a 7th of the total capital cost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
This is all I could come up with - Posted Feb 2020.
... a 3rd side-platform to the east under Clarkson St. connected by a walkway to the existing station.

The other alternative would be to move the whole station to the east 2 blocks and
buy out the rest of that block where Stefanos is located for an expanded station,
but the purchase of the Boucher Building nixes that.
I think OfficeDweller nailed it. Ultimately, whatever we call it, there should be a shuttle-like line that connects Columbia Station and Lougheed Station. It should not try to interline with the LIM SkyTrain system's two main lines (Expo Line and Millennium Line). Ideally, it would make use of a new third track at Columbia Station with a dedicated platform. Due to the urban complexity of that area, as UrbanDweller suggests it would likely have to be a mined station with a significantly reconfigured tunnel and some fancy footwork to tie back into the main line somewhere west of Columbia Station.

Another thought would be an elevated station with a single-track, single-sided station like Richmond-Brighouse, that would be built effectively above Columbia Station. The station's track would split east of this new station and tie into the two existing former Millennium Line tracks after their switches with the Expo Line for SkyBridge, but before they enter the tunnel. This would require some pretty extensive reconstruction of the retaining walls and acquisition of the adjacent properties so that Clarkson Road could be shifted north or closed altogether between Blackwood Street and Elliot St.

What such a configuration would let us do is run the Shuttle Line between Columbia Station and Lougheed Station, with a single dedicated track and platform at each end. I have given no thought to which platform at Lougheed Station it would use, however it would, hopefully, simplify operation of that station in some way. Passengers transferring at Columbia Station would be able to use vertical circulation to travel from the lower Expo Line Station to the upper Shuttle Line station. The Shuttle Line would just be a high frequency link, but all existing SkyTrain switching would remain in place, allowing for full use of the future operations and maintenance facility.

If Translink wanted to do a more modest redesign that would not involve anything as dramatic as the above to ideas, what would be idea is a reconfiguration to split the Columbia Station tracks and create a centre platform for Spanish Solution transfers, plus two standard side platforms. That will take a lot of space and a lot of engineering to carry the load of the buildings south of tracks that would be undermined by a widened track and station footprint. And the multi-year disruption that the renovations would require is daunting.

So with all that said, I don't think Translink is going to be able to muster the political capital to extract a substantial amount of capital-capital to pay for a major redesign that will require a mined or elevated station. Therefore, I expect that the most likely scenario will be the creation of improved pedestrian connections from the existing side platforms via a new overhead vertical circulation system.

Last edited by SFUVancouver; Apr 30, 2023 at 11:51 PM.
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  #3977  
Old Posted May 1, 2023, 12:34 AM
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OK, so I found the document I'd mentioned that relates to the potential use of the Lougheed-Columbia connector. It was a link to the Surrey-Langley SkyTrain Business Update from 2022, posted in the MV Transit forum by Chowhou this past February. On page 11, it describes the 2035/2050 Expo Line as having a peak-period route from Waterfront to Arbutus, turning at Production Way in off-peak, with AM/PM peak headways of 2:18 for King George runs and 4:30 for Arbutus. If they stick to those assumptions, it would preclude having a connector shuttle service on the Lougheed-Columbia portion of the line.
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  #3978  
Old Posted May 1, 2023, 12:49 AM
madog222 madog222 is offline
 
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Yes, it really depends on where Columbia-Lougheed fits into the ultimate line configuration. A third track only being tied in on one side makes it easier (or makes it technically possible) but that locks Columbia-Lougheed into the Millenium line.

That would leave Expo as Waterfront <-> Langley/South Surrey and Millenium as UBC <-> Lafarge/Port Coquitlam/Columbia. As Tvisforme posted Translink wants Columbia-Lougheed on the Expo Line, at least with BSP built.
Either way there will be five "eastern" branches over two lines which might make a shuttle service between Columbia Lougheed necessary.

Last edited by madog222; May 1, 2023 at 1:15 AM.
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  #3979  
Old Posted May 1, 2023, 1:29 AM
officedweller officedweller is online now
 
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I guess the determining factor will be the capacity required south of Fraser and whether they can afford to reduce capacity on the Expo Line to/from SoF by branching off to Arbutus.
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  #3980  
Old Posted May 1, 2023, 4:24 AM
dpogue dpogue is offline
 
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IMO what Columbia needs is not a separate platform for trains towards Lougheed, but rather a centre platform for easier transfers. unfortunately, that's incredibly difficult to change at this point given the tunnels on either side of the station and the massive disruption to service it would cause.
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