Transit Fantasies

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I think maybe let's wait for autonomous AIs to stop driving their vehicles into walls before we think about buses.

Unless we're talking about the ones that only clock 20 km/h, or the ones that require two drivers to operate?

We could start with something more like a guided bus with an operator at the front until we figure out how to get an autonomous guided bus to detect people at a stop.

Originally Posted by madog222

I really don't see autonomous bus service coming any time soon. Even then I doubt the cost savings would be enough to justify extremely low yield service.

I believe the main recurring cost of a manually operated bus is the driver. The highest expense of TransLink in 2022 was compensation (salary, wages, and benefits), topping out at $795 million. Fuel and power was $89 million and maintenance, materials, and utilities were $182 million.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

We could start with something more like a guided bus with an operator at the front until we figure out how to get an autonomous guided bus to detect people at a stop...

Somehow, I doubt the cost savings between a driver and an operator will be significant enough to make it worthwhile.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Somehow, I doubt the cost savings between a driver and an operator will be significant enough to make it worthwhile.

Could be more like a skytrain attendant

[Migrant_Coconut]

Unlike an attendant, the operator would have to know how to drive - that's going to bring the salary up.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Unlike an attendant, the operator would have to know how to drive - that's going to bring the salary up.

Skytrain attendants' are trained to drive the trains. I would also want an automated bus attendant to be licensed and capable of driving the bus.

Edit, I realise that's what you are saying.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Fair enough, but then it turns out SkyTrain attendants get paid slightly more than bus drivers, so the analogy's kind of backfired.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Fair enough, but then it turns out SkyTrain attendants get paid slightly more than bus drivers, so the analogy's kind of backfired.

Yeah but you don't always see an attendant on a train or in a station. All busses need drivers, but not all stations or trains need attendants.

[Migrant_Coconut]

You're kind of arguing against yourself here - if every night bus driver gets replaced with an attendant, labour costs will go up, not down.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You're kind of arguing against yourself here - if every night bus driver gets replaced with an attendant, labour costs will go up, not down.

That is if every driver gets replaced with an attendant. You're also forgetting that if needed, the bus could also be remote controlled as it would also be driver-optional.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

That is if every driver gets replaced with an attendant. You're also forgetting that if needed, the bus could also be remote controlled as it would also be driver-optional.

This is a really interesting comment to me. Is there a world where we can justify remote controlled busses? It would eliminate a lot of the issues caused by having on-premise drivers; Safety of drivers would no longer be a concern, drivers could swap shifts at a moment's notice, washroom breaks wouldn't be the big issue it currently is, more room could be allocated on the bus for passengers, drivers might even be able to work from home

The downside would be lack of fare enforcement/supervision. Drivers currently act as a pseudo-security guard and enforcement officer, but AFAIK they're under no obligation to do so and I wonder if busses would be any worse than Skytrain for fare evasion/disruptions.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by chowhou

The downside would be lack of fare enforcement/supervision. Drivers currently act as a pseudo-security guard and enforcement officer, but AFAIK they're under no obligation to do so and I wonder if busses would be any worse than Skytrain for fare evasion/disruptions.

I think this is where AI facial recognition cameras come into play, or even off board payment that could make boarding faster, at least for those with a compass card. But then you would have to have a compass machine (one that can withstand the elements as well as vandalism from the local vagrants) at every bus stop pole. A quick google search tells me there are 8561 stops and about 1365 buses, only counting stuff run by CMBC.

[chowhou]

This model would be revolutionary if it could be applied to busses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgarsten/2...robotrucks-coming-to-us/?sh=7f0f2b2855a9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einride

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'd suggest that if cloud gaming already has latency issues, cloud driving is a long way away. Losing seconds of reaction time (or worse, if it outright lags) sounds like multiple accidents waiting to happen.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd suggest that if cloud gaming already has latency issues, cloud driving is a long way away. Losing seconds of reaction time (or worse, if it outright lags) sounds like multiple accidents waiting to happen.

Maybe when 6G gets implemented.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd suggest that if cloud gaming already has latency issues, cloud driving is a long way away. Losing seconds of reaction time (or worse, if it outright lags) sounds like multiple accidents waiting to happen.

The issue with cloud gaming is the latency sending data between you and the server you're talking to which is typically hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away. If CMBC was to have an operations centre in Burnaby directly communicating with busses in the Lower Mainland, the EoE latency to a bus in Richmond or Surrey really shouldn't be more than a few milliseconds.

The model is also to have the vehicle supported by some autonomous driving features, but nothing that's outside current norms (lane assist, adaptive cruise control, lane change, stopping at stoplights, that sort of thing).

Bear in mind that the vehicles would be travelling on static, generally straight routes too so there's no need to go crazy with the autonomous driving requirements. If extremely straight routes with existing bus lanes could be converted, that might be game changing (see 99, R4, R3).

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Maybe when 6G gets implemented.

4/5/6G isn't about improving latency, you can't really get information to travel faster than the speed of light. Bandwidth =/= speed/latency.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by chowhou

The issue with cloud gaming is the latency sending data between you and the server you're talking to which is typically hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away. If CMBC was to have an operations centre in Burnaby directly communicating with busses in the Lower Mainland, the EoE latency to a bus in Richmond or Surrey really shouldn't be more than a few milliseconds.

4/5/6G isn't about improving latency, you can't really get information to travel faster than the speed of light. Bandwidth =/= speed/latency.

Look up that satellite controlled gun that was used to kill the head of the Iranian nuclear program. It was designed to compensate for the latency.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Much as I'd like to swap out the driver's booth for more passenger space, it's probably best for the tech to prove itself before we adopt it (i.e. not in the near future). For example, what happens if the server and the backup crap out mid-afternoon?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Much as I'd like to swap out the driver's booth for more passenger space, it's probably best for the tech to prove itself before we adopt it (i.e. not in the near future). For example, what happens if the server and the backup crap out mid-afternoon?

I imagine the same thing that happens when the Skytrain server and backup craps out mid-afternoon.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1458720/massive-skytrain-disruptions-blamed-on-a-computer-glitch/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I imagine the same thing that happens when the Skytrain server and backup craps out mid-afternoon.

That's grade-separated trains, though - they stop working, they just sit there on the tracks. Stalled buses are going to be in the way.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's grade-separated trains, though - they stop working, they just sit there on the tracks. Stalled buses are going to be in the way.

At least the passengers can get out easily.