Port of Vancouver Discussion

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yeah, this is what happen when people move in to a subdivision behind a major rail line and then realize that it's an inconvenience. It's fine if they don't want to pay for grade separation, but if an over or underpass is to be built then they loose me at why they shouldn't have to pay anything for it.

Well the government allowed it to be developed

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Well the government allowed it to be developed

If the government told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? Would you buy a home in Flood BC, and claim you had no idea that the place was at risk for floods, as some have? Would you buy a home next to the airport and then complain about the noise?

Caveat emptor.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If the government told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it? Would you buy a home in Flood BC, and claim you had no idea that the place was at risk for floods, as some have? Would you buy a home next to the airport and then complain about the noise?

Caveat emptor.

yup. people annoy me with this. just because the government allows something through greed and a developer, doesnt mean its a good idea.

this needs to be built. every major crossing in a city of the railroad needs to be grade separated. damn you CoV for missing the deadline for the Prior St one!

[madog222]

No, the municipality shouldn't be expected to pay any significant amount for it. It also seems perfectly reasonable for them to consider an overpass not possible considering the proximity to a residential building.

The project is for the benefit of port operations, railway operations, and rail safety which are the jurisdiction of Port Metro Vancouver, CPKC, and Transport Canada respectively.
This is not a municipal responsibility and it is not being built because the municipality or community wants it.

Pitt Meadows, a municipality of 20,000, is suddenly being asked to pay up to $50M (more than the municipality's annual budget according to the former mayor) for the project simply because of cost increases over the initial budget, not because that would be their standard share.

For comparison, the City of Vancouver paid a grand total of $3.75 million for the Powell Street Overpass.


Cost increases due to inflation seem to be relatively minor with most of the increases coming from needing to redesign and build to a new seismic standard.

From last month:

As a result, what was originally estimated to be a $63.3 million project will now cost a total of approximately $195 million.

“We have a very large funding gap to close if the project is to move forward,” said Fitch.

“Almost every stone we turned over in this case was hiding something unpleasant which costs more money. The silver lining is that at this point, we have run out of stones to turn over.”

“One of the biggest changes in cost is related to new design requirements. A good example of that is the change in seismic design code. Essentially, we are required to now design and construct that Harris Road underpass for a much larger and more powerful earthquake.”

Fitch explained that the port authority explored every avenue they could think of in order to help reduce the cost of the underpass, but was unable to find a solution that everyone could agree on.

“The only meaningful way to save costs – in our view – is to switch to an overpass,” said Fitch.

https://www.mapleridgenews.com/news/pitt...ive-with-50-million-requested-from-city/

[madog222]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

damn you CoV for missing the deadline for the Prior St one!

CoV did as much as they could but they have no choice in the matter if CN doesn't want to build it. End of storey.

[svlt]

https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluations/proj/80054

Roberts Bank Terminal 2 was just approved today with conditions.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by svlt

https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluations/proj/80054

Roberts Bank Terminal 2 was just approved today with conditions.

Now I wonder if the GCT DP4 project will go ahead or not.

In contrasting news, Pitt Meadows refused to fund the Harris Road underpass.

City of Pitt Meadows won’t fork out $50M for ‘critical’ rail underpass

While it supports a much-needed rail underpass that it describes as “critical infrastructure,” the City of Pitt Meadows will not fork out up to $50 million to help the project cross the finish line.

Councillors voted unanimously on Tuesday to reaffirm their commitment to the Harris Road Underpass Project, but declined the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority’s request to become a funding partner and provide 25 per cent of project costs. Residents who have spoken against Pitt Meadows’ financial involvement have cited a “long-term tax burden” as a concern.

“Council will continue to proactively advocate for federal funding to help close the funding gap and has received strong regional and provincial support for this critical project that advances national, provincial, regional, and local interests,” Pitt Meadows Mayor Nicole MacDonald said in a Wednesday news release.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9636112/pitt-meadows-wont-pay-50m-rail-crossing-underpass-project/

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Now I wonder if the GCT DP4 project will go ahead or not.

In contrasting news, Pitt Meadows refused to fund the Harris Road underpass.



https://globalnews.ca/news/9636112/pitt-meadows-wont-pay-50m-rail-crossing-underpass-project/

Something of this size is a bit iffy already with the coal port probably not surviving the next 20 years.



Berth 4 would have been better in terms of financial risk, but worse in terms of the environment.

It will be interesting to see if they both get approval, and then have to negotiate amongst themselves which one will go forwards.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by svlt

https://iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/evaluations/proj/80054

Roberts Bank Terminal 2 was just approved today with conditions.

yay!!!

Originally Posted by fredinno

Something of this size is a bit iffy already with the coal port probably not surviving the next 20 years.

i doubt the coal will be going anywhere. from my understanding we ship out metallurgical coal, not thermal coal. i.e. used in making steel. and as long as we keep needing steel, we will need metallurgical coal.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

as long as we keep needing steel, we will need metallurgical coal.

As long as the world keeps making steel with traditional processes, yes.

[chowhou]

If I recall correctly, a lot of the coal we export out of the Port of Vancouver actually originates south of the border in places like Wyoming, Montana, and Nebraska. The only reason we get to ship it out is because Washington, Oregon, and California are so vehemently opposed to letting it through their ports.

If that ever changed in a single port on the West Coast, coal's days here might be numbered.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by chowhou

If I recall correctly, a lot of the coal we export out of the Port of Vancouver actually originates south of the border in places like Wyoming, Montana, and Nebraska. The only reason we get to ship it out is because Washington, Oregon, and California are so vehemently opposed to letting it through their ports.

If that ever changed in a single port on the West Coast, coal's days here might be numbered.

Over the last few years it's been about 22-25 million tonnes metallurgical and 10-12 million tonnes thermal shipped from here.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by madog222

Over the last few years it's been about 22-25 million tonnes metallurgical and 10-12 million tonnes thermal shipped from here.

The most recent data on the Port website indicates thermal coal shipments are up. The first 6 months of 2022 saw 12.8m tonnes of metallurgical coal, and 9 million tonnes of thermal coal, (way up from the 5.6m tonnes in 2021). I guess it could be international disruption of supply due to the war in Ukraine? The thermal coal comes from Wyoming and Montana (and possibly some from Utah?).

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The most recent data on the Port website indicates thermal coal shipments are up. The first 6 months of 2022 saw 12.8m tonnes of metallurgical coal, and 9 million tonnes of thermal coal, (way up from the 5.6m tonnes in 2021). I guess it could be international disruption of supply due to the war in Ukraine? The thermal coal comes from Wyoming and Montana (and possibly some from Utah?).

That's a huge increase.

2021 total was already a littler higher at 15.1M which means 9.5m in H2 2021.

Doing some quick googling demand (particularly in Asia) and prices shot up peaking in October 2021, came down a bit, then shot up again 2022 almost instantly following the invasion to ~6x the early 2021 price.

[Klazu]

Great news about the terminal approval. So rare to see federal government do something to benefit the economy.

[fredinno]

Are there plans to built this out in phases rather than all at once?
It seems risky with the questions with how the supply chains will hammer out.

If Biden succeeds on getting more of Latin America in a NAFTA-style trade agreement, we could see more trade coming in via Atlantic Ports and land instead of by sea (which mostly supports trade from Asia.)

It's not 2013 anymore- the assumptions behind this project don't necessarily still apply.

[LeftCoaster]

Phases.

Also, the port is well aware of the demand requirements for both coal and its port facilities in general. This expansion is badly needed and overdue, expanded NAFTA or not.

[mcj]

Is anyone aware of any plans to upgrade the rail infrastructure that supports Deltaport to handle this extra traffic? After 72nd street it all just gets fed into a single track, seems like that'll become a bottleneck if it isn't already.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

Is anyone aware of any plans to upgrade the rail infrastructure that supports Deltaport to handle this extra traffic?

They're increasing the width of the causeway to support extra rail traffic, but I'm not aware of anything on shore.

[LeftCoaster]

Lots of incremental upgrades aimed at ensuring the land ops don't cause a bottleneck. It's called the Gateway Project:

https://www.portvancouver.com/wp-content...am-Procurement-and-DB-Approach-FINAL.pdf