The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I don't see it as odd at all, to me it's embracing that the city core is too hamstrung by the idea of the central peninsula south of the highway/bridge. Take the area around Rockland Rd/Winter St/Seely St./etc. for example, that's all dense, walkable and barely outside of the central business district, but as soon as you pass the highway Saint Johners dismiss it as not being central. Same goes for parts of Main Street and Douglas Avenue. Case in point, I live in Mount Pleasant and I have a shorter walk to the City Market than I did when I lived in the deep South End, it's all the perception of the highway that means it's "outside of the core."

When I lived in Halifax the peninsula was physically many times the size of SJ's central peninsula, and few thought anything of the distance from the downtown to the Dal campus for example, or from SMU to the Seaport Farmers Market, both of which are further distances than Uptown to the existing museum site.

At some point the city's urban growth is going to embrace secondary areas like the North End - which currently has more units actually under construction than Uptown does - so why not start acknowledging that now?

I think it has less to do with size and more with the fact that the highway hems in the city centre. The Dal campus would feel a lot less accessible from downtown Halifax if there was a highway bisecting the peninsula.

[ColSJ]

I agree full heartily that areas like the old north end, Douglas Avenue and Mount Pleasant are apart of the city core and with the city growing their prominence will only grow but I don’t think that makes them qualifiers for the NB museum.

IMO the museum should be in a hyper-urban location accessible to everyone. Whether that’s cruise ship passengers by foot, buses from schools, or residents from walking or public transit.

The NB museum needs to be surrounded by amenities like restaurants and shops. Do we really want the closest restaurants to the NB museum be McDonalds, Tim Hortons & Wendy’s?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

a ferry between the lower west side and the south end, which would be an absolutely wild waste of money to construct landings for, and operate at a loss forever. There's a million priorities that should come before cute little things like a pedestrian ferry between a depopulated suburb and downtown.

Do you have any idea how much the other 4 ferries in the greater Saint John area cost? The current Bay Ferries terminal could be augmented to accommodate a second, pedestrian/cycle ferry. An even more exciting possibility would be modernizing Pier 13 to accommodate the pedestrian ferry between West Saint John and the Museum at the old sugar refinery site.

Bringing back the West Side/Uptown ferry is going to be an absolute game changer for active transportation and tourism in Saint John. Bicycles and Dogs welcome! #SJandTheTownsBytheBay

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Do you have any idea how much the other 4 ferries in the greater Saint John area cost? The current Bay Ferries terminal could be augmented to accommodate a second, pedestrian/cycle ferry. An even more exciting possibility would be modernizing Pier 13 to accommodate the pedestrian ferry between West Saint John and the Museum at the old sugar refinery site.

Bringing back the West Side/Uptown ferry is going to be an absolute game changer for active transportation and tourism in Saint John. Bicycles and Dogs welcome! #SJandTheTownsBytheBay

No, I don't. Please indulge me with the capital and operating costs for the 5- you forgot one- other ferries in the greater Saint John area.

All 5 ferries carry traffic where bridges would be prohibitively expensive or impossible. As well as bikes, pedestrians, and dogs... so what's your point there? I presume Neither Summerville nor Gondola Point face the open ocean, and IIRC Westfield and Kennebecasis Island are cable ferries. This ferry would have to be ocean going and agile/powerful enough to cross an increasingly active harbour with very strong currents, at all tides. This ferry would connect Uptown to, charitably, 5,000 residents east of Havelock St.

Sloganeering doesn't work too good on here. We all want the city to grow and succeed, but a hashtag and a boat are not going to turn the *Lower West* of all places into a tourist destination.

Some civilian advice. Build it and they will come. Bay Shore hasn't had a dollar spent on it in my entire life, and Seaside Park isn't much better off. The beautiful trail that runs from the breakwater to McLaren's Beach is unsigned, unmaintained, and unknown. Hell, there could be a continuous trail from the Digby terminal that connected to Harbour Passage to Sheldon's Point. This could be accomplished on only public ROW and abandoned rail lines. We could have a world-class trail system from Musquash to the Port with very little investment, which would actually draw some seasonal traffic.

Both locations you mention on the west side are about as far of a walk as possible from the Lower West's densest areas, then you suggest the uptown terminal be as far from uptown as possible... on a pile of rubble and teak posts.

Not being a downer but this a wishlist item and I hope Saint John does not seriously consider it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No, I don't. Please indulge me with the capital and operating costs for the 5- you forgot one- other ferries in the greater Saint John area.

All 5 ferries carry traffic where bridges would be prohibitively expensive or impossible. As well as bikes, pedestrians, and dogs... so what's your point there? I presume Neither Summerville nor Gondola Point face the open ocean, and IIRC Westfield and Kennebecasis Island are cable ferries. This ferry would have to be ocean going and agile/powerful enough to cross an increasingly active harbour with very strong currents, at all tides. This ferry would connect Uptown to, charitably, 5,000 residents east of Havelock St.

Sloganeering doesn't work too good on here. We all want the city to grow and succeed, but a hashtag and a boat are not going to turn the *Lower West* of all places into a tourist destination.

Some civilian advice. Build it and they will come. Bay Shore hasn't had a dollar spent on it in my entire life, and Seaside Park isn't much better off. The beautiful trail that runs from the breakwater to McLaren's Beach is unsigned, unmaintained, and unknown. Hell, there could be a continuous trail from the Digby terminal that connected to Harbour Passage to Sheldon's Point. This could be accomplished on only public ROW and abandoned rail lines. We could have a world-class trail system from Musquash to the Port with very little investment, which would actually draw some seasonal traffic.

Both locations you mention on the west side are about as far of a walk as possible from the Lower West's densest areas, then you suggest the uptown terminal be as far from uptown as possible... on a pile of rubble and teak posts.

Not being a downer but this a wishlist item and I hope Saint John does not seriously consider it.

Last time I checked the Carleton Martello Tower was on the West Side, a tourist site that just went under a $13.5 million dollar restoration. Moreover, the Digby Ferry terminal is on the West Side. The other ferries you’ve mentioned all operate free of charge, and cost millions of dollars each year to facilitate out of town commuters coming into Saint John to work. There’s substantially more people in West Saint John, than Long Reach and Kennebecasis Island combined, yet it’s outlandish to suggest bringing back the West Side/Uptown ferry? You say you hope Saint John didn’t consider bringing back the West/Uptown Ferry service, but It’s not really something for the city of Saint John to consider, certainly not by themselves, but rather it’s something for them to work together with their partners at Port Saint John, the Government of Canada, and the Government of New Brunswick.


If you feel the Digby ferry terminal or Pier 13 are too far removed from the residential population (I don’t think a 5-10 minute walk and even shorter bike ride is too far) Building a pier at the Harbourside of the breakwater at Bayshore could be a great option have the ferry service operate between West Saint John and Uptown… even if it was just a seasonal service. Talk about a tourism asset if we could build a world class pier here in Saint John on the Bay of Fundy.

It’s an absolute shame Bayshore is so underfunded and neglected, considering it’s one of the most scenic areas in the city. Go to Old Orchard Beach in Maine and you’ll see high rise condos behind the beach… we’ve got nothing of the sort here by Bayshore, or anywhere on the West Side for that matter. It’s a huge missed opportunity to not have more high rise residential in our neighbourhoods adjacent to the ocean.

Your walking trail idea is great, especially if it goes around the port, and under the harbour bridge to connect walkers and cyclists from the West Side to Uptown, with a pedestrian/ cycle bridge. There’s a lot of room for development and resident focussed infrastructure between Bayshore and Uptown… our partners at the port, the federal government, and province can make all these things possible. The West Side shouldn’t just be seen as some depopulated suburb, it should be seen as an oceanfront neighborhood with all kinds of opportunity…

Better connecting the West Side peninsula with the rest of the city needs to be a higher priority than it has been for decades. We don’t even have a single pedestrian/cycle crossing over the throughway connecting the West Side and Fairville Plaza to walkers and cyclists. For some people, this would be the difference between a 5-10 minute walk and a 20+ minute walk to Sobeys.

I don’t think you’re a downer, and you’re clearly well informed, but I do think you’re selling the West Side a bit short— and being way too dismissive of the cost/benefit of bringing back a ferry between Uptown and West Saint John. Whether it be a year round ferry to augment our public transportation system, or a smaller scale seasonal water taxi service, the investment would be a mere drop in the bucket of the provincial budget, and be a prime candidate for federal funding/ partnership with the port. It would be a catalytic project for people on both sides of the harbour.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Last time I checked the Carleton Martello Tower was on the West Side, a tourist site that just went under a $13.5 million dollar restoration. Moreover, the Digby Ferry terminal is on the West Side. The other ferries you’ve mentioned all operate free of charge, and cost millions of dollars each year to facilitate out of town commuters coming into Saint John to work. There’s substantially more people in West Saint John, than Long Reach and Kennebecasis Island combined, yet it’s outlandish to suggest bringing back the West Side/Uptown ferry? You say you hope Saint John didn’t consider bringing back the West/Uptown Ferry service, but It’s not really something for the city of Saint John to consider, certainly not by themselves, but rather it’s something for them to work together with their partners at Port Saint John, the Government of Canada, and the Government of New Brunswick.


If you feel the Digby ferry terminal or Pier 13 are too far removed from the residential population (I don’t think a 5-10 minute walk and even shorter bike ride is too far) Building a pier at the Harbourside of the breakwater at Bayshore could be a great option have the ferry service operate between West Saint John and Uptown… even if it was just a seasonal service. Talk about a tourism asset if we could build a world class pier here in Saint John on the Bay of Fundy.

It’s an absolute shame Bayshore is so underfunded and neglected, considering it’s one of the most scenic areas in the city. Go to Old Orchard Beach in Maine and you’ll see high rise condos behind the beach… we’ve got nothing of the sort here by Bayshore, or anywhere on the West Side for that matter. It’s a huge missed opportunity to not have more high rise residential in our neighbourhoods adjacent to the ocean.

Your walking trail idea is great, especially if it goes around the port, and under the harbour bridge to connect walkers and cyclists from the West Side to Uptown, with a pedestrian/ cycle bridge. There’s a lot of room for development and resident focussed infrastructure between Bayshore and Uptown… our partners at the port, the federal government, and province can make all these things possible. The West Side shouldn’t just be seen as some depopulated suburb, it should be seen as an oceanfront neighborhood with all kinds of opportunity…

Better connecting the West Side peninsula with the rest of the city needs to be a higher priority than it has been for decades. We don’t even have a single pedestrian/cycle crossing over the throughway connecting the West Side and Fairville Plaza to walkers and cyclists. For some people, this would be the difference between a 5-10 minute walk and a 20+ minute walk to Sobeys.

I don’t think you’re a downer, and you’re clearly well informed, but I do think you’re selling the West Side a bit short— and being way too dismissive of the cost/benefit of bringing back a ferry between Uptown and West Saint John. Whether it be a year round ferry to augment our public transportation system, or a smaller scale seasonal water taxi service, the investment would be a mere drop in the bucket of the provincial budget, and be a prime candidate for federal funding/ partnership with the port. It would be a catalytic project for people on both sides of the harbour.

Firstly, your population numbers are totally off. It is not within realistic walking distance for more than 4,800 people- that's the population of the west side, east of Havelock St roughly. If you make it seasonal, good luck getting commuters to commit to it. The west side in toto is not a depopulated suburb- stable at 23% of SJ's population- but the Lower West absolutely is. West Side growth, such as it is, is almost entirely west of Havelock St.

While the other ferries don't make money, they serve communities that don't already have bridges and never will. They also see commercial traffic, especially Digby. The Kingston Peninsula has 3,800 people on it with no connection to the 'mainland' south of Hampton besides ferries, two of which are seasonal. If Saint John can't ask the feds and province to redirect funding for a hypothetical ferry to other transport uses, we've got a serious problem.

The entire stretch from the breakwater to seaside is basically sand and clay and is eroding. It is not suitable for large scale development. I'm surprised there haven't been more issues with the Sea St extension yet.

Anyway there's a lot of talk about billions of dollars of hypothetical spending, high rises, etc, that won't come to fruition when there's lots of smaller practical changes that can be made today. Problem #1 is you can fit thousands more people in the Lower West than want to live there. Why is that? That must be fixed before we get a twee little ferry link.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Firstly, your population numbers are totally off. It is not within realistic walking distance for more than 4,800 people- that's the population of the west side, east of Havelock St roughly. If you make it seasonal, good luck getting commuters to commit to it. The west side in toto is not a depopulated suburb- stable at 23% of SJ's population- but the Lower West absolutely is. West Side growth, such as it is, is almost entirely west of Havelock St.

While the other ferries don't make money, they serve communities that don't already have bridges and never will. They also see commercial traffic, especially Digby. The Kingston Peninsula has 3,800 people on it with no connection to the 'mainland' south of Hampton besides ferries, two of which are seasonal. If Saint John can't ask the feds and province to redirect funding for a hypothetical ferry to other transport uses, we've got a serious problem.

The entire stretch from the breakwater to seaside is basically sand and clay and is eroding. It is not suitable for large scale development. I'm surprised there haven't been more issues with the Sea St extension yet.

Anyway there's a lot of talk about billions of dollars of hypothetical spending, high rises, etc, that won't come to fruition when there's lots of smaller practical changes that can be made today. Problem #1 is you can fit thousands more people in the Lower West than want to live there. Why is that? That must be fixed before we get a twee little ferry link.

Did I even list a single population number other than sayings there’s substantially more people in West Saint John than Kennebecasis Island and Long Reach combined?

As for how many people on the west side would live close enough to the ferry to walk to it or ride a bike to it and take it uptown… I think your the one with numbers that are way off. Even if it took 20-30 minutes to walk to the ferry terminal for some, it would be a hell of a lot quicker than walking around the entire harbour passage to get uptown instead.

Sounds more like you just want to write off everything east of Havelock Street. Carleton Martello Tower is East of Havelock Street, and it’s one of the premier tourist destinations in Saint John, and still undergoing a $13.5 million restoration project.


There’s less than 4000 on the entire Kingston Peninsula and they have 2 or three Ferries almost exclusively for commuters in cars… The West Side has a hell of a lot more people than that, yet you think it would be an incredible waste of money for a single ferry between the west side and uptown? It would be connected by a bus stop on both sides, obviously, and it might actually get some people using public transport that have never even considered it before.

First things first though… Saint John residents need to make their voices heard, that we want the main attraction of the museum project to be built Upton along the waterfront. I think the polling would show overwhelming support among Saint Johnners for the new museum to be built somewhere Uptown along the harbour-front.

Then we can worry about where to put a ferry link between West Saint John and Uptown, and right that historical wrong of it ever being taken away in the first place.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Did I even list a single population number other than sayings there’s substantially more people in West Saint John than Kennebecasis Island and Long Reach combined?

As for how many people on the west side would live close enough to the ferry to walk to it or ride a bike to it and take it uptown… I think your the one with numbers that are way off. Even if it took 20-30 minutes to walk to the ferry terminal for some, it would be a hell of a lot quicker than walking around the entire harbour passage to get uptown instead.

Sounds more like you just want to write off everything east of Havelock Street. Carleton Martello Tower is East of Havelock Street, and it’s one of the premier tourist destinations in Saint John, and still undergoing a $13.5 million restoration project.


There’s less than 4000 on the entire Kingston Peninsula and they have 2 or three Ferries almost exclusively for commuters in cars… The West Side has a hell of a lot more people than that, yet you think it would be an incredible waste of money for a single ferry between the west side and uptown? It would be connected by a bus stop on both sides, obviously, and it might actually get some people using public transport that have never even considered it before.

First things first though… Saint John residents need to make their voices heard, that we want the main attraction of the museum project to be built Upton along the waterfront. I think the polling would show overwhelming support among Saint Johnners for the new museum to be built somewhere Uptown along the harbour-front.

Then we can worry about where to put a ferry link between West Saint John and Uptown, and right that historical wrong of it ever being taken away in the first place.

Being new to the group you may not realize, but there are other local threads: Uptown Saint John; Fundy Quay; 91 King St (should be 99)

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Did I even list a single population number other than sayings there’s substantially more people in West Saint John than Kennebecasis Island and Long Reach combined?

As for how many people on the west side would live close enough to the ferry to walk to it or ride a bike to it and take it uptown… I think your the one with numbers that are way off. Even if it took 20-30 minutes to walk to the ferry terminal for some, it would be a hell of a lot quicker than walking around the entire harbour passage to get uptown instead.

Sounds more like you just want to write off everything east of Havelock Street. Carleton Martello Tower is East of Havelock Street, and it’s one of the premier tourist destinations in Saint John, and still undergoing a $13.5 million restoration project.


There’s less than 4000 on the entire Kingston Peninsula and they have 2 or three Ferries almost exclusively for commuters in cars… The West Side has a hell of a lot more people than that, yet you think it would be an incredible waste of money for a single ferry between the west side and uptown? It would be connected by a bus stop on both sides, obviously, and it might actually get some people using public transport that have never even considered it before.

First things first though… Saint John residents need to make their voices heard, that we want the main attraction of the museum project to be built Upton along the waterfront. I think the polling would show overwhelming support among Saint Johnners for the new museum to be built somewhere Uptown along the harbour-front.

Then we can worry about where to put a ferry link between West Saint John and Uptown, and right that historical wrong of it ever being taken away in the first place.

Including the entire west side as a potential service area is awfully bold. It isn't.

Who is commuting from, say, Westgate or Lorneville, to the Digby Ferry terminal, to take a pedestrian ferry to Tin Can Beach, and then a bus uptown? Rube Goldberg commuting is not going to happen in a city where a traffic jam means 5 minutes of idling, and a single bus will get you across the river pretty easily already.

The Lower West has two bridges right now. A bike/pedestrian connection under the Harbour Bridge would actually connect the Lower West to Uptown without too much fuss or opex.

No one is building or wants to build bridges to the peninsula. No ferries in the province prohibit or discourage foot or bicycle traffic, so I have no idea what that point is about. The peninsula is 10x bigger than the entire SJ PDA, no wonder it gets a couple ferries- all of which are necessary, because they're full most of the working day. Rural areas having more, and more expensive, transportation infrastructure per person doesn't mean urban areas should get carte blanche to match that- if anything, density should make it cheaper.

I know you've got a city to promote, but 'people will take the ferry to go to Martello Tower' is really weak, especially when heading to Douglas Avenue is apparently too difficult for the same people to do! In either case, infrastructure should not be built for tourists, but for residents.

There's dozens of things taxpayer money should 'envision' before a ferry that will dead-head back west every morning trip, and east every evening trip, if anyone's on it in the first place.

[JakeNB]

I hesitate to weigh in on this, but not sure how a discussion on the appropriate site for the new Museum (an actual project in the design/siting phase) has been conflated with a fanciful suggestion of a ferry to the Lower West Side. Appropriating the name of the regional development agency does not assist the credibility of the poster. But I guess we could also discuss a water slide from Kings Square to Market Slip if we all have time on our hands. SMH

[UptownJeff]

Reported in the TJ this morning - Gary Spicer has purchased the cafe at Reversing Falls. He said that it may not be what people have thought he would open based on his history.....maybe not a restaurant?

[ColSJ]

Small updates around the city:

The construction of Popeyes is in full swing. Mobile crane was on sight doing ground work.

Apparently phase 4 of Heatherway has started.

And… Aquarius Towers is moving quick. I wouldn’t be shocked if a mobile crane goes up there.

[adamuptownsj]

I was at the property tax sale to see if any deals could be had, especially on Main St, where a dozen former PMV Canada properties were for sale- all vacant lots.

Back in 2017, PMV bought a ton of stuff north and south... and by 2020 was done with the city, having sat on six or seven homes until they collapsed, which was probably the largest single loss of housing stock in years in the North End. I picked up a duplex, 4plex, and lot on Orange in 2018, and it seems they stopped paying property tax on a number of lots after that. Clustered around Main and Albert, the lots were their last holdings here.

Anyway... two bidders got into it! One is a local real estate agent, I forget her name. Chinese woman, middle aged, short hair. The others, two guys, were unknown to me... but after the sale they were huddling with Don Darling.

The real estate agent ended up spending $233,000 on 4 seemingly random lots. None seem like they could accommodate more than a triplex, so there must be something afoot.

119 Main ($51K)
126 Main ($94,000!!!) which borders Asimakos' old Forum site to the east
135 Main ($52K)
13-15 Albert ($36K)

The other bidders spent $182K on 6 lots. 21-31 Metcalf is on the north side of the street; the other lots are interspersed with the RE agent's lots.

105 Main ($12K)
115-117 Main ($13K)
123-125 Main ($16K)
129-131 Main ($16K)
80-88 Metcalf ($53K)
21-31 Metcalf ($72K)

A third bidder bought 120 Main for $36K. Back in January, someone bought 111 Main, the only lot on this corner not up at auction, for $14K.

The two guys actively bid on all of these, and the agent left partway through after serious bids on half the properties, so IDK what's going on. See a visual reference here https://imgur.com/a/yoyRZTE

Per PAOL, there have been a lot of sales on the east side of Cedar St in the last six months, too... does anyone have an ear to the ground?

[adamuptownsj]

I don't wanna double post... but someone bought about 25% of the undeveloped Fallsview area for a cool $800,000 in November. https://paol-efel.snb.ca/paol.html?v=1.0.37&lang=en&pan=04086951

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I've heard on decent authority that the proposed 35-unit at Crown and Leinster (https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=9828) will proceed this summer.

Did they give you a specific month?

[ColSJ]

The little house infront of 461 Millidge Avenue has been demolished making way for construction of the new building.

[cdnguys]

NYK Demeter looks impressive in harbour - wondering if largest container ship ever to call on port.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

NYK Demeter looks impressive in harbour - wondering if largest container ship ever to call on port.

To be exact it is 0.06 meters longer than what is now the second longest container ship to ever call on the port which was the MSC Ela in 2019. But the Ela has the capacity of 12 more TEUs at 4900 to the NYK’s 4888.

Some depends what were measuring.

[DyAm00394]

PORTION OF SILVER FALLS LAND SELLS

https://www.bbrokers.ca/portion-of-silver-falls-land-sells

"Brunswick Brokers is very happy to announce that they were instrumental in securing a buyer for a 16.56 acre parcel of land off Nason Road in the Silver Falls area of Saint John. The land is currently zoned Future Development and is adjacent to an established multi-unit residential development including Michael Crescent and Martha Drive. This area is popular with renters due to its proximity to retail, restaurants and services. The Land which was owned by the Silver Falls Park Development Company Limited was sold by the estate of the late Harold and Ruth McNamara and purchased by local developers.

This is the second parcel that Brunswick Brokers has sold for this vendor. In October of last year, another company purchased a 12.5+ acre parcel of land located near the corner of Commerce Drive and Loch Lomond Road in Saint John, NB. That property is zoned Business Park and the buyers of that land announced plans for a commercial development".

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

PORTION OF SILVER FALLS LAND SELLS

https://www.bbrokers.ca/portion-of-silver-falls-land-sells

Looks to be this PID- sold for $75,000 on the 20th. Almost certainly will be developed as MUR, if at all. https://paol-efel.snb.ca/paol.html?v=1.0.37&lang=en&pan=05013024

The three discontiguous portions (at Commerce and Loch Lomond) sold for $250,000 in October; I believe a self storage site is planned for the largest lot, east of Commerce. https://paol-efel.snb.ca/paol.html?v=1.0.37&lang=en&pan=05180392

Both of these were property of Silver Falls Development, which I understand is being wound down.

Something seems to be up with the PID west of the west-of-Commerce parts of that property too. It sold for $285,000 in December. https://paol-efel.snb.ca/paol.html?v=1.0.37&lang=en&pan=05012913