DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Sierra Obscura

...I do fantasize about a 16th St. Mall filled with local shops and restaurants, becoming a regional draw once again, but it will probably take quite some time for that to develop.

Add 20,000 new units in downtown proper and that will happen. Remove FAR, remove view planes, remove parking (or better yet put parking maximums) and it will happen in some of our lifetimes. We need those dense units dtown, not five blocks outside of it.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Correction...had landscaping appeal. All of that is getting ripped out with the new 16th st mall plan - or so that's what I deciphered from the terrible plan they came up with.

Greenery and streetscape is literally the best thing the City has done in the past 20 years. The ROI for streets and trees and pleasant street level experiences is enormous in terms of new tax dollars generated. Think S Broadway 20 years ago, 14th Street 15 years ago, LoHi before the pedestrian bridge (?) years ago, Brighton 10 years ago. Cities really need to take a step back and invest in pedestrian and landscaping infrastructure...the rest will follow!

I agree 200%. And this is where I say I am deathly afraid that DOTI screws up the streetscape on Colfax BRT. There should be a dollar spent on streetscape for every dollar spent on core BRT infrastructure. Alas, when it eventually gets value engineered, the agency that will tackle the BRT project but is afraid of sidewalks is definitely going to make all the wrong decisions.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Correction...had landscaping appeal. All of that is getting ripped out with the new 16th st mall plan - or so that's what I deciphered from the terrible plan they came up with.

We will see. The landscaping appeal of the mall came solely from the trees canopy- the only decent one downtown for the better part of three decades. If Stantec doesn’t screw that up I think the appeal will return and be increased.

But right now it has the appeal of navigating an entry control point at Bagram back in ‘08.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

We will see. The landscaping appeal of the mall came solely from the trees canopy- the only decent one downtown for the better part of three decades. If Stantec doesn’t screw that up I think the appeal will return and be increased.

But right now it has the appeal of navigating an entry control point at Bagram back in ‘08.

Except I think Bagram in 2008 was probably safer than 16th Street in 2023.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

"Purposeful" walks. I used to do those. Now I don't have time, and in a post-commute world, my incidental walking is down to maybe a 3,000 steps per day average. That's the difference - if I lived in Europe, I'd average twice that without doing anything out of the course of my normal frenzied day; without anything purposeful.

I walked to King Soopers yesterday. Probably not a quarter mile round-trip. But with perm. work from home, I have more time for fitness. And the kids are old enough that they go to the gym with me on weekends, so family time/fitness = win/win?

[BrIced_Tea]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

We will see. The landscaping appeal of the mall came solely from the trees canopy- the only decent one downtown for the better part of three decades. If Stantec doesn’t screw that up I think the appeal will return and be increased.

But right now it has the appeal of navigating an entry control point at Bagram back in ‘08.

Looks like they're bringing all the street trees and planting back.

https://www.denvergov.org/Government/Age...ices/Projects/16th-Street-Mall#section-3

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by BrIced_Tea

Looks like they're bringing all the street trees and planting back.

https://www.denvergov.org/Government/Age...ices/Projects/16th-Street-Mall#section-3

It'll be 30 years until those trees amount to anything resembling urban canopy and 25% of them will be dead by then too. I'll never understand treescape in Denver. 100 years ago, every street in Denver was lined with elms, maples, and cottonwoods and looked like the picture-esque Brooklyn brownstone streets. Then urban renewal happened and we've never cared about it since. Quite literally every larger City out west (and every city in the east) has a nice urban canopy, except Denver. Even downtown Vegas and Phoenix and Cheyenne make Denver look like a dust bowl.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

It'll be 30 years until those trees amount to anything resembling urban canopy and 25% of them will be dead by then too. I'll never understand treescape in Denver. 100 years ago, every street in Denver was lined with elms, maples, and cottonwoods and looked like the picture-esque Brooklyn brownstone streets. Then urban renewal happened and we've never cared about it since. Quite literally every larger City out west (and every city in the east) has a nice urban canopy, except Denver. Even downtown Vegas and Phoenix and Cheyenne make Denver look like a dust bowl.

Drought, climate change, and invasive species are all a bitch.

Seriously, the hatred to a native tree like the cottonwood by the city sucks. It's a fast-growing tree that thrives in the climate and could quickly bolster the canopy... brittle nature of the boughs be damned.

As for the 16th Street Mall canopy, my understanding is that Stantec has ~250 juvenile trees that have been acclimating since 2000 in Colorado that will provide an instant canopy (25-40' height) versus your standard Home Depot tree that's usually planted as part a development landscaping. Think the Union Station plaza as it looks today.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by laniroj

It'll be 30 years until those trees amount to anything resembling urban canopy and 25% of them will be dead by then too. I'll never understand treescape in Denver. 100 years ago, every street in Denver was lined with elms, maples, and cottonwoods and looked like the picture-esque Brooklyn brownstone streets. Then urban renewal happened and we've never cared about it since. Quite literally every larger City out west (and every city in the east) has a nice urban canopy, except Denver. Even downtown Vegas and Phoenix and Cheyenne make Denver look like a dust bowl.

You're not wrong - but we should also give credit where it is due. The Downtown Denver Partnership's Urban Forest Initiative Grant Program would seem to demonstrate at least some understanding that trees need more to survive than a 5'X5' box in the sidewalk that never gets any water.

While I don't have a photo immediately available for reference, I would bet that those tree-lined streets had continuous tree-lawns like in Cap Hill and other residential neighborhoods. A 5'X5' box in the concrete jungle of downtown may work for cities that get more rain, but here the roots need more dirt to expand out into so they don't dry out quite so fast in a summer heat spell. I guess only time will tell if the larger 5'X15' planter boxes will be enough to restore the tree canopy downtown, but at least this effort demonstrates some recognition by landscape architects and the business district that we need to do more to keep trees healthy in Denver. As wong21fr pointed out, a major, professional landscape architecture firm should know how to get this right. The trees in Union Station plaza really do look pretty decent today, and they have replaced the trees that have failed.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

It only took ten years but 'we' got her done

The GSA has sold off the 59 acres of federal land owned at the Federal Center to a developer from Dallas.

It turns out the buyer from Dallas was Lincoln Property

and the backstory is hilarious.

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Narrate Companies Breaks Ground on Boutique Apartment Community in Denver
April 18, 2023 - Mile High CRE

Frameline Apartments - 4225 E Hale Parkway


Image courtesy OZ Architecture

Narrate Companies and MCP Group broke ground recently on Frameline, a new 78-unit high-efficiency boutique apartment community at 4225 E Hale Parkway. Designed by OZ Architecture, the new community is nestled between the historic Hale neighborhood and the vibrant 9+CO redevelopment. Frameline achieves practicality with modern design tailored to meet growing demand from the area’s predominantly medical workforce.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Drought, climate change, and invasive species are all a bitch.

Seriously, the hatred to a native tree like the cottonwood by the city sucks. It's a fast-growing tree that thrives in the climate and could quickly bolster the canopy... brittle nature of the boughs be damned.

As for the 16th Street Mall canopy, my understanding is that Stantec has ~250 juvenile trees that have been acclimating since 2000 in Colorado that will provide an instant canopy (25-40' height) versus your standard Home Depot tree that's usually planted as part a development landscaping. Think the Union Station plaza as it looks today.

I don't think Cottonwoods would be a good idea on the mall. One of my neighbors let one grow (planted itself) and sure, it grew very fast. And then destroyed their sidewalk. Cost them a lot to have it removed and replace the sidewalk. Apparently they have very invasive roots, which is why you don't see them in people's yards. But they are a beautiful tree.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Drought, climate change, and invasive species are all a bitch.

Seriously, the hatred to a native tree like the cottonwood by the city sucks. It's a fast-growing tree that thrives in the climate and could quickly bolster the canopy... brittle nature of the boughs be damned...

Cottonwoods consume an ungodly amount of groundwater, that's the real issue. A mature tree is AT LEAST 200 gallons a day during summer, that's 3-4 times pretty much any other tree that grows in Colorado.

[Sierra Obscura]

Originally Posted by mr1138

You're not wrong - but we should also give credit where it is due. The Downtown Denver Partnership's Urban Forest Initiative Grant Program would seem to demonstrate at least some understanding that trees need more to survive than a 5'X5' box in the sidewalk that never gets any water.

While I don't have a photo immediately available for reference, I would bet that those tree-lined streets had continuous tree-lawns like in Cap Hill and other residential neighborhoods. A 5'X5' box in the concrete jungle of downtown may work for cities that get more rain, but here the roots need more dirt to expand out into so they don't dry out quite so fast in a summer heat spell. I guess only time will tell if the larger 5'X15' planter boxes will be enough to restore the tree canopy downtown, but at least this effort demonstrates some recognition by landscape architects and the business district that we need to do more to keep trees healthy in Denver. As wong21fr pointed out, a major, professional landscape architecture firm should know how to get this right. The trees in Union Station plaza really do look pretty decent today, and they have replaced the trees that have failed.

https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/de...reet/16th-st-EA-meeting-presentation.pdf

^ Page 15 onward confirms this will be an improved Silva Cell system underground, plus a tree selection process more aligned with our climate. Curious to see what those species will end up being...

I love the mix of deciduous and evergreen trees on the Pearl Street Mall - would like to see something similar on 16th.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by Sierra Obscura

https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/de...reet/16th-st-EA-meeting-presentation.pdf

^ Page 15 onward confirms this will be an improved Silva Cell system underground, plus a tree selection process more aligned with our climate. Curious to see what those species will end up being...

I love the mix of deciduous and evergreen trees on the Pearl Street Mall - would like to see something similar on 16th.

Cool! And also a positive step not to go with a monoculture of honey locust trees. And don't get me wrong - I love honey locust trees and think they make great urban street trees. But if we've learned anything from the Emerald Ash Borer epidemic, it should be that it is NEVER a good idea to do an entire landscaping project with just one species of tree.

Also, and to my original point, check out the size of most of those planters on the Pearl Street Mall.

[TakeFive]

My Goodness

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2023/04/20/zoom-comcast-sublease-denver.html

The amount of office space available for sublease is at a record-breaking 6.6 million square feet this year.

This is a metro figure and the good news is presumably the rent is still being paid for this space. But good luck leasing existing available space - except in very desirable buildings.

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Almost 23,000 Denver metro area apartments are vacant as eviction filings climb
April 20, 2023 By Kyle Harris - Denverite

Interesting overview of apartments for the 7-county greater metro area.

• Apartments built before 1970 have the lowest vacancy
• Apartments between 50 and 99 units have the lowest vacancy

Reportedly, over 3,500 new units were added during the 1st quarter and over 10,000 new units will be added during 2023. Over 40,000 units are under construction.

Note: The last time I tried to fact check this stuff I found apartments supposedly headed to completion that hadn't even broken ground yet. Still it's probably as good of a guestimate as one could find.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

One area that could really benefit from some updated streetscaping is 13th Ave in the Golden Triangle area. That area feels like Brighton Blvd before the most recent infrastructure project.

[TakeFive]

What It Takes to Be Middle Class in America’s Largest Cities – 2023 Study
APR 14, 2023 By Patrick Villanova, CEPF - SmartAsset

To find the true pulse of today’s middle class, SmartAsset calculated the bounds on middle class earnings in 100 of the largest U.S. cities, as well as all 50 states.

Denver is 21st.

[CPVLIVE]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Denver's 16th Street Mall has the landscaping appeal but instead of adding good retailers they've lost good retailers.

Coincidentally, earlier I picked up a guy who works for Avis Security (didn't even know Avis was doing security). In any case the nearby center that they monitor has two stores that suffer the most theft: Target and Famous Footwear.

Here's to hoping that the Downtown Denver Partnership has more success finding new tenants and the whoever is elected Mayor can actually accomplish cleaning up the downtown streets.

The 16th Street Mall's largest problem is that 40% of it looks like this -


Source : Axios Denver via msn.com -https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/16th-street-mall-exemplifies-downtown-denvers-struggles/ar-AA19IvYg

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by mr1138

Cool! And also a positive step not to go with a monoculture of honey locust trees. And don't get me wrong - I love honey locust trees and think they make great urban street trees. But if we've learned anything from the Emerald Ash Borer epidemic, it should be that it is NEVER a good idea to do an entire landscaping project with just one species of tree.

Also, and to my original point, check out the size of most of those planters on the Pearl Street Mall.

I have a couple of the Locust trees and while they're beautiful, they start dropping leaves everywhere by mid July. Not sure why that is, but they're just messy and I'd never plant another one.

I think some evergreens mixed in (similar to Pearl St.) would be a good idea. I guess all trees are messy at some point.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I have a couple of the Locust trees and while they're beautiful, they start dropping leaves everywhere by mid July. Not sure why that is, but they're just messy and I'd never plant another one.

I think some evergreens mixed in (similar to Pearl St.) would be a good idea. I guess all trees are messy at some point.

For a few weeks in July they can be very messy it's true. But they also have a canopy that tends to spread out umbrella-like and form a "rooflike" effect (especially when planted with other honey locusts). They also allow some sunlight to filter in and you can string lights between them easily, which makes them especially good for a place like the 16th St Mall. They're also hardy, drought-tollerant, and okay with growing in compacted or nutrient-poor soil, which all makes them good candidates for urban trees in our climate.

I'd like to see more evergreen trees too - I think Ponderosas could be really interesting. There are some mature ones used as street trees on 18th Ave by Lake Middle School, and they are beautiful. A lot of places explicitly ban evergreens as street trees though (not sure if Denver does).