LRT Stage 3

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Not really. It's labelled as "Protected Transportation Corridor" in Ottawa's new Official Plan, which is a downgrade from its previous status as part of the ultimate O-Train network in the previous OP. Tunney's Pasture to Bayview eastbound represents the AM rush hour peak load in ridership forecasts, so I think they realized that Bayview wouldn't be able to handle the extra ridership that would come from Gatineau if they extended Line 2 over the river.

Bayview makes a decent alternate transfer point for those not heading towards downtown, but a direct line is needed for those who are. As a result, I could see the Chief William Commanda Bridge being a secondary or tertiary crossing, but it should never be the primary crossing.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Bayview makes a decent alternate transfer point for those not heading towards downtown, but a direct line is needed for those who are. As a result, I could see the Chief William Commanda Bridge being a secondary or tertiary crossing, but it should never be the primary crossing.

[stolenottawa]

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/gower-...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1681744299

Gower suggesting going BRT for Stage 3.

[SL123]

Originally Posted by stolenottawa

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/gower-...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1681744299

Gower suggesting going BRT for Stage 3.

I agree with this paragraph below a 100%

I can see a case for extending light rail from Moodie Drive as far as Eagleson Road or Terry Fox Drive, then connecting to a bus-only transitway in two directions: north along March Road toward the technology park, and west towards Stittsville.

[Takingoff]

Originally Posted by SL123

I agree with this paragraph below a 100%

I second this. In Germany, these suburbs would be considered satellite towns, served by a single s-bahn with good frequency and links to the larger urban core.

This model works when paired with good bus service to the main rail line. This is cheaper, more flexible, and ultimately provides better service to more people.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by stolenottawa

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/gower-...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1681744299

Gower suggesting going BRT for Stage 3.

Stupid. That's almost 300k of Ottawa's population not getting access to LRT. I don't care what people think of them being satellite towns, they are important areas to have access to stop sprawl and define city limits between already existing BOROUGHS of our city. Our city hasn't had good bus service, and got worse with our new council, it's not going to magically get better because we call it "Stage 3 BRT".

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Stupid. That's almost 300k of Ottawa's population not getting access to LRT. I don't care what people think of them being satellite towns, they are important areas to have access to stop sprawl and define city limits between already existing BOROUGHS of our city. Our city hasn't had good bus service, and got worse with our new council, it's not going to magically get better because we call it "Stage 3 BRT".

Agree 100%

We keep getting told that a good transit system means transfers. In the case of Ottawa, the more transfers the better.

Our transit system and our downtown are both sunk if getting to downtown mean two transfers for much of the city.

I have commented repeatedly that permanently terminating the Trillium Line at Limebank and using BRT for the remainder of the line to Barrhaven, guarantees failure of the BRT portion and considerably lower ridership. Will we ever have more than 30 minute frequency beyond LImebank? I doubt it. A mandatory transfer on a major transit line guarantees ridership loss. It becomes a mobility barrier.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Stupid. That's almost 300k of Ottawa's population not getting access to LRT. I don't care what people think of them being satellite towns, they are important areas to have access to stop sprawl and define city limits between already existing BOROUGHS of our city. Our city hasn't had good bus service, and got worse with our new council, it's not going to magically get better because we call it "Stage 3 BRT".

For me, Ottawa City Limits are whatever is inside the Greenbelt. Everything outside of that is sprawling suburb that I don't have any interest in. I don't see any particular reason why we should extend LRT to these far reaches when there are still such obvious improvements to be made to transit in the core.

And they would still get BRT anyway, which most of the time would suit the needs of these areas.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Stupid. That's almost 300k of Ottawa's population not getting access to LRT.

Much like 200k of central and eastern Ottawa's population also not getting access to LRT. If we're in no rush to bring higher-order urban transit to the core, I see no reason any more to rush building it out to Kanatahaven.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by JHikka

For me, Ottawa City Limits are whatever is inside the Greenbelt. Everything outside of that is sprawling suburb that I don't have any interest in. I don't see any particular reason why we should extend LRT to these far reaches when there are still such obvious improvements to be made to transit in the core.

It's pretty clear by now that the only role that the core has to play in transit policy in this supposed city, is that it subsidizes the construction and operation of transit in the suburbs.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by JHikka

For me, Ottawa City Limits are whatever is inside the Greenbelt. Everything outside of that is sprawling suburb that I don't have any interest in. I don't see any particular reason why we should extend LRT to these far reaches when there are still such obvious improvements to be made to transit in the core.

And they would still get BRT anyway, which most of the time would suit the needs of these areas.

It would not suit the needs of the area, it creates a disjointed system. And we aren't going to sit here and think an archaic city limit line such as the failed greenbelt are the city limits lol. They are as much as the city is as any other district is, and if you want to avoid MORE sprawl, then you bring LRT to it and allow more TOD in their boroughs.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Much like 200k of central and eastern Ottawa's population also not getting access to LRT. If we're in no rush to bring higher-order urban transit to the core, I see no reason any more to rush building it out to Kanatahaven.

It is very laughable if you think that 200k of central and eastern Ottawa are getting anything in lieu of Stage 3. We aren't, what we are getting is a city council looking to scrape dollars. If we don't get stage 3, then we aren't all of a sudden getting a Bank St subway. They're already cutting back on bus service yet they want to replace a plan for LRT expansion on a service they're cutting back on? What a smart idea.

300,000 people are people that have been paying into their taxes, are some of them NIMBYs? Sure, but not all, and the plans around their future development is high density and conversions to street level walkability to combat the sprawl that was to happen even longer. If we say "oh ho ho ho kanata and barrhaven far, who cares about them", then none of us should be complaining about further sprawl and the city being car centric, because that is what will happen without LRT to these areas. That TOD and density is planned because there's a plan for stage 3 LRT.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

It's pretty clear by now that the only role that the core has to play in transit policy in this supposed city, is that it subsidizes the construction and operation of transit in the suburbs.

That's laughable, considering LRT is primarily only in the core at the moment. These further stages expand it so that people wherever they are in the city can access wherever they want to go within Ottawa without relying on a car.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

That's laughable, considering LRT is primarily only in the core at the moment. These further stages expand it so that people wherever they are in the city can access wherever they want to go within Ottawa without relying on a car.

How is LRT primarily in the core? It skims the edge of the inner city on it's way from the downtown business district out to the suburbs (evenutally). Almost no dense inner-city neighbourhoods have access to LRT. The suburbs are the priority for this dysfunctional municipal government and have been for quite some time.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

How is LRT primarily in the core? It skims the edge of the inner city on it's way from the downtown business district out to the suburbs (evenutally). Almost no dense inner-city neighbourhoods have access to LRT. The suburbs are the priority for this dysfunctional municipal government and have been for quite some time.

Stage 1 is located within the core only. Stage 2 creates access to more areas, and then Stage 3 provides more access than that, which means if someone needs to get anywhere from the core to another area (east, west, or south), they can utilize the LRT fairly well.

[orleans_man]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

That's laughable, considering LRT is primarily only in the core at the moment. These further stages expand it so that people wherever they are in the city can access wherever they want to go within Ottawa without relying on a car.

Although, I agree it would be awesome to see Phase 3 built out as LRT. I think the numbers are becoming really hard to justify. 6.5 Billion is a lot of money, costs have also risen since the pandemic, so those numbers are probably low.

Also, the commuting patterns since the pandemic have changed and may not return. I don't know if the operational savings that were projected for Phase 1 - LRT will ever come to pass? This was one of the key rationales used to justify the cost -> here supposed to be $100 Million a year in Operational Savings (Buses and Drivers). So even with Phase 1 we are facing a major revenue miscalculation right now.

Prior to the pandemic there would be 100's of buses hourly during rush hour coming into Ottawa from the suburbs. Those numbers have been drastically reduced. I know my own express route in Orleans went from 10 AM runs to 3 and anecdotally from 500-600 daily users to maybe 50-75 users at most.

So back to the numbers, the idea of spending 6500 Millions - so basically 6500 per resident (or in my case, for my family of 4). $26,000 is tax dollars to extend Phase 3 as LRT, I think real hard questions and analysis need to be done.

What made sense before the pandemic from a transit planning perspective may need to be re-examined.

BTW - I am just ignoring the fact the Phase 1 has any problems. Let's just pretend they are able to address the operational challenges and Phase 2 is seamlessly executed and all that - I still think some people smarter than me should re-examine the options

[swimmer_spe]

Maybe the phase 3 of the LRT is making it reliable so that it can run year round regardless of weather. Doing that will show the citizens that they can rely on it. Doing that will mean that they will return to using it.

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Stage 1 is located within the core only. Stage 2 creates access to more areas, and then Stage 3 provides more access than that, which means if someone needs to get anywhere from the core to another area (east, west, or south), they can utilize the LRT fairly well.

Stage 1 is physically located in the urban core. It doesn't serve urban travel patterns, but rather is designed to get people from their suburban transfer station to their office job in downtown.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe the phase 3 of the LRT is making it reliable so that it can run year round regardless of weather. Doing that will show the citizens that they can rely on it. Doing that will mean that they will return to using it.

This.

[OTSkyline]

Also, our city council has repeatedly shown that they are not interested in limiting sprawl and focusing on densification. Look at the extension of the urban boundary again lately. If we spend over $6B to bring LRT to Kanata, the sea of SFH with continue to be built at the edge of town and next thing you know, we will be studying the feasibility of spending another $2B to bring it to Stittsville, etc...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by orleans_man

Although, I agree it would be awesome to see Phase 3 built out as LRT. I think the numbers are becoming really hard to justify. 6.5 Billion is a lot of money, costs have also risen since the pandemic, so those numbers are probably low.

Also, the commuting patterns since the pandemic have changed and may not return. I don't know if the operational savings that were projected for Phase 1 - LRT will ever come to pass? This was one of the key rationales used to justify the cost -> here supposed to be $100 Million a year in Operational Savings (Buses and Drivers). So even with Phase 1 we are facing a major revenue miscalculation right now.

Prior to the pandemic there would be 100's of buses hourly during rush hour coming into Ottawa from the suburbs. Those numbers have been drastically reduced. I know my own express route in Orleans went from 10 AM runs to 3 and anecdotally from 500-600 daily users to maybe 50-75 users at most.

So back to the numbers, the idea of spending 6500 Millions - so basically 6500 per resident (or in my case, for my family of 4). $26,000 is tax dollars to extend Phase 3 as LRT, I think real hard questions and analysis need to be done.

What made sense before the pandemic from a transit planning perspective may need to be re-examined.

BTW - I am just ignoring the fact the Phase 1 has any problems. Let's just pretend they are able to address the operational challenges and Phase 2 is seamlessly executed and all that - I still think some people smarter than me should re-examine the options

I think this is all good analysis. The Phase 2 numbers already look very shaky and we will be in real trouble without some kind of new revenue sharing arrangement on Transit that doesn't seem likely with post 2025 possible two hostile governments to deal with.