DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Sierra Obscura

The skyline in Cherry Creek is nice to look at from the ground, and I love all of the streel-level retail/activation, but it's a shame about the height plateau. It has, or had, the potential to be Denver's version of Buckhead.

The Atlanta market is huge but I'd tend to compare Buckhead to downtown Denver.

Cherry Creek is more comparable to Kierlands Commons - Scottsdale Quarter across the street from each other in Scottsdale. Both areas are upscale and better known for their retail and entertainment (restaurants etc) than office space - although both areas have some corporate presence. Both areas include hotels and are medium density.

[TakeFive]

What you missed

Originally Posted by rds70

For those who say that Denver is becoming the next San Francisco (in a negative way), maybe:

The primary point of the Chronicle's articles is that San Francisco needs more downtown residential density like $billions more.

While the Denver CBD has only modest residential density the CBD is relatively small. If you look at the greater downtown footprint, then there's mixed-use areas including residential in LoDo and DUS. Other adjacent neighborhoods like Arapahoe Square, Golden Triangle, Ball Park and RiNo have seen an explosion of residential density and it continues.

It's always nice to see new companies come to town.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Denver has a particular problem with respect to Cherry Creek: the mountain view that wealthy homeowners to the west have a vested interest in preserving (which adds to their land value). Hence, the plateau is beneath the level that would obstruct views.

Quite honestly, we could remove the view question altogether by passing a citizen initiated petition that protects certain views and authorizes the city to remove height caps when they don’t conflict with those views and to disallow protected views from private land.

Calls it “Peaks from Parks” or something else catchy and deliberately protect all remaining views of the mountain crest from all major public parks and select sites. It’d remove the question from contention—it’d be settled by voters, and thus allow city council greater maneuverability with respect to developing height. e.g. they can always say “well, this doesn’t conflict with the voter passed initiative, therefore it has voter support to go taller.”

Denver does not protect any views from private property, only from public spaces.

The view plane that limits the height in Cherry Creek is from Cranmer Park.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Cherry Creek is more comparable to Kierlands Commons - Scottsdale Quarter across the street from each other in Scottsdale. Both areas are upscale and better known for their retail and entertainment (restaurants etc) than office space - although both areas have some corporate presence. Both areas include hotels and are medium density.

Cherry Creek in no way is comparable to the fake (sub)urbanism of Kierland Commons. Cherry Creek has developed organically over decades. It was not created as part of a single development. Kierland is also almost all surface parked, with only the fake Main Street being pedestrian-oriented. Scottsdale Quarter is a little better, but was still developed by a single owner, rather than organically.

I would compare Cherry Creek to Tempe in terms of the development pattern.

[TakeFive]

I couldn't help but find some humor in this

Originally Posted by rds70

Cherry Creek in no way is comparable to the fake (sub)urbanism of Kierland Commons. Cherry Creek has developed organically over decades. It was not created as part of a single development. Kierland is also almost all surface parked, with only the fake Main Street being pedestrian-oriented. Scottsdale Quarter is a little better, but was still developed by a single owner, rather than organically.

I would compare Cherry Creek to Tempe in terms of the development pattern.

Rather arbitrary but you make many good, fair points.

The comparison to Tempe makes some sense. It has exploded with dense development. But the organic part of Tempe is from its adjacent 55,000 student ASU campus and nearby housing etc along with the iconic Mill Street. There has been some adjacent 'more midrise' development. Tempe has also become a huge address for corporate location (very different from Cherry Creek) along the Tempe Town Lake but since it's (largely) all come in the last dozen years not sure whether organic or 'fake.' It was basically also a master plan.

Some could argue that the Cherry Creek Shopping Center is more comparable to to Fashion Square in downtown Scottsdale and I wouldn't disagree.

Because of your background were you aware that the 'Commons' was (per Wikipedia) "The development concept, urban design plan and design guidelines were prepared by Design Workshop, Inc. (Denver, CO) and Communication Arts, Inc. (Boulder, CO)." Not sure having a master plan makes it fake but it was an award winning development and is hugely successful. Kierland is also anchored by the Westin Kierland Hotel & Resort (11 stories) with its over 800 rooms and suites.

Dirty little secret

The boundary between Scottsdale and Phoenix is the middle of Scottsdale Road in much of North Scottsdale including this area - they do use a Scottsdale address/zip. It's why both zoning and density have been easier to accomplish and why the nearby areas have been adding impressive residential density. Mill Creek has acquired a huge half block site south of the Commons and adjacent to the Corporate Center in addition to their 7-story Modera project north of the Commons right on Scottsdale Rd.

So it's fair to say that Cherry Creek has developed or maybe redeveloped over a longer period of time I guess. More dense? Nah. Less suburban? Debatable.

True Funny Story

I picked up a 30 something couple at an apartment across the street to the north of The Quarter. Guy says he visited a friend in Denver while back. Impressed with all the (downtown) development etc. The one BIG problem is that Denver doesn't have the infrastructure to handle the traffic. Obvious Changes in Attitudes and Changes In Latitudes.

[Ndj]

Originally Posted by Sierra Obscura

The skyline in Cherry Creek is nice to look at from the ground, and I love all of the streel-level retail/activation, but it's a shame about the height plateau. It has, or had, the potential to be Denver's version of Buckhead.

One could argue that one of the driving factors behind the street level activation is the height limit. In a lot of way the building heights in Cherry Creek are right in the sweet spot of what many urbanists consider to be ideal.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

This is fascinating


I remember when OliverMcMillan bought the property in 2016 but I forgot that Invesco was their financial partner. I also forgot that Brookfield Residential Properties later bought OliverMcMillan.

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/...x_testVariant=cx_26&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s


Not sure how Prism Places and BMC hooked up but PRISM has done mixed-use development in Los Angeles. Whether Invesco is interested in adding additional equity on top of the land, I duno but they're capable


Love the residential development there.


With respect to Crate & Barrel my guess is they go across the road to Cherry Creek West.

An article about the Sears redevelopment came across my FB feed yesterday and the comments were hilarious. People complaining about "paving over every square inch of Denver, too many people, too much traffic, too many high rises, too many condos" lol! Maybe a beet field and unicorn path in the heart of CCN would have pleased them? Why do I read the comments??

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Ndj

One could argue that one of the driving factors behind the street level activation is the height limit. In a lot of way the building heights in Cherry Creek are right in the sweet spot of what many urbanists consider to be ideal.

Good point about the sweet spot, but also depends how hardcore those urbanists are. You can get NYC/Tokyo/Hong Kong density by building residential and office up and needing street level retail everywhere or you can go the Paris/London route with residential 5-8 story buildings everywhere and lots of great street level retail. Ooooor you can go the DC route and have all 12 story office space everywhere with no retail anywhere and massively sprawling suburbs. Denver seems to be going the Paris/London route (200 years in their past), which is great. Hustling vs bustling, as they say.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

This is an interesting convo. I used to be partial toward high rise development but I'm more interested now in how things feel at the street level. I feel like LoDo and CCN are among the better neighborhoods in Denver because they feel much more vibrant to walk in. The central business district is obviously much denser when it comes to vertical development but it's not a particularly attractive area to be in. This is why I think I prefer some of the development in Denver versus Austin. I think Denver is on a better trajectory for walkability than Austin despite the fact that Austin is building far more high rises than we are.

[Ndj]

Yeah I'd say the streetscape is steadily improving in much of Denver. The same can't be said for some other cities growing at the same rate. It's not perfect here but it could definitely be a lot worse.

[DenverInfill]

Skyscrapers aren't necessary for great urbanism, but density is.

[mhays]

And good transportation mode splits.

[TakeFive]

I'd disagree somewhat

IMO, (whether urban or suburban) the best way to create activity/demand is by having a good tenant mix. For example, Cherry Creek SC I assume is still more for retail shopping than entertainment while Cherry Creek North likely has more nighttime entertainment appeal as well as daytime shopping appeal. Newer, nicer areas go for both daytime basics as well as nighttime entertainment appeal.

When one mentions 'streetscape' I'd ask how nice is the landscaping? Landscaping is a huge add for nicer, popular shopping areas. If it flowers or if it's green people love it.

Originally Posted by mhays

And good transportation mode splits.

Yesterday, about 1:45 pm in the afternoon I had a drop off and later a pickup at urban/suburban Kierland Commons and the sidewalks were just crawling with people. Good guess that half of the people were from out-of-town and all use rideshare. The landscaping along the sidewalks is awesome this time of year with flowering plants and shrubs etc.

If not yet, then In a few months it will be Denver's time to shine.

[TakeFive]

Side Pocket Topics

Speaking of retail and Walmart
Why Walmart is closing half its stores in Chicago
Thu April 13, 2023 By Nathaniel Meyersohn, CNN

New York (CNN)
Walmart plans to close half its stores in Chicago, a reversal of the retail giant’s high-profile commitment in 2020 to expand in the city as part of its corporate racial justice initiative in the wake of George Floyd’s murder by police.

The announcement comes after Walmart highlighted its efforts in Chicago as a “critical part” of its broader $100 million pledge to advancing racial equity in 2020.

So what went wrong?

But Walmart said Tuesday that these four stores lose tens of millions of dollars a year and that annual losses have nearly doubled in the last five years. The company said it tried several strategies to improve the stores and invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the city. “Unfortunately, these efforts have not materially improved the fundamental business challenges our stores are facing,” Walmart said in a blog post.

Denver's 16th Street Mall has the landscaping appeal but instead of adding good retailers they've lost good retailers.

Coincidentally, earlier I picked up a guy who works for Avis Security (didn't even know Avis was doing security). In any case the nearby center that they monitor has two stores that suffer the most theft: Target and Famous Footwear.

Here's to hoping that the Downtown Denver Partnership has more success finding new tenants and the whoever is elected Mayor can actually accomplish cleaning up the downtown streets.

[Sierra Obscura]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

This is an interesting convo. I used to be partial toward high rise development but I'm more interested now in how things feel at the street level. I feel like LoDo and CCN are among the better neighborhoods in Denver because they feel much more vibrant to walk in. The central business district is obviously much denser when it comes to vertical development but it's not a particularly attractive area to be in. This is why I think I prefer some of the development in Denver versus Austin. I think Denver is on a better trajectory for walkability than Austin despite the fact that Austin is building far more high rises than we are.

I do agree with these points (and RiNo I believe is joining the ranks of LoDo and CCN), but I think it has more to do with the mix of uses vs. the height of buildings. I don't fetishize height alone, but I like that the northern end of River North is developing with a range of building heights...it creates a nice bit of variety, and a good amount of those buildings are residential.

Downtown, IMO, is too office-heavy to be an attractive area to spend time, especially post-Covid. If those towers had more residential units, no doubt it would have rebounded by now; it would at least have some appeal. In fact, there's an argument that places like Cherry Creek North and RiNo have sucked the demand away from downtown for that mix - I do fantasize about a 16th St. Mall filled with local shops and restaurants, becoming a regional draw once again, but it will probably take quite some time for that to develop.

[TakeFive]

Denver’s Office Vacancy Rate Reaches 10-Year High
April 17, 2023 By Robert Davis, Bisnow Denver

Metro Denver’s office vacancy rate reached a 10-year high during the first quarter of 2023 as economic uncertainty continues to weigh down the city’s commercial real estate market.

The city’s total office vacancy rate increased by 1.4% year-over-year to 20.9%, according to CBRE’s latest market report.

What's going on out there?

Leasing activity and net absorption continue to be two of the most troublesome segments of Denver’s office market. ... Meanwhile, large employers like law firm Bryan Cave and Tetra Tech reduced their office footprints in March, according to CBRE.

Denver saw a significant decline in its net absorption, which speaks to the decreasing demand for the city’s office space. In Q1, Denver posted a negative 250K SF absorption rate, led by Class-B properties

[TakeFive]

Exactly How Much Less America Walks Than Other Countries, In Five Charts
Apr 14, 2023 By Kea Wilson - StreetsBlog USA

I didn't bother to read the article as I didn't doubt the assertion made. Besides here in the States we tend to be distinctly American. But many might enjoy reading the article.

My mind started to wander to "what makes people gather, congregate?"

For healthy activity and exercise Fitness Centers seem to print money in the desert. I assume this is somewhat similar in Denver but that Denver's wonderful parks serve this purpose even better. Wash Park has always been the most popular and I assume one could still easily find a pick-up Volleyball game.

Googling for answers

Then I moved to the built environment and I focused on shopping or similar activities. Has anything much changed in the last 10 years?

With respect to malls, Survey says:

• Cherry Creek Shopping Center
• 16th Street Mall
• Denver Pavilions
• Park Meadows Mall

For more of a Denver specific areas of shopping etc popularity, Survey Says:

• LoDo - Larimer Square - Union Station
• Cherry Creek North
• 16th Street Mall
• SoBo/South Broadway
• Art District on Santa Fe
• Denver Central Market - The Source

Note: While the 16th Street Mall's current popularity may be lagging from Google's POV it is still very unique and appealing.

Not sure how important but most of the above have less density. In many instances it goes to the historical appeal along with a nice tenant mix.

And all this amounts to... well have a cup of coffee on me

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Exactly How Much Less America Walks Than Other Countries, In Five Charts
Apr 14, 2023 By Kea Wilson - StreetsBlog USA

I didn't bother to read the article as I didn't doubt the assertion made. Besides here in the States we tend to be distinctly American. But many might enjoy reading the article.

My mind started to wander to "what makes people gather, congregate?"

For healthy activity and exercise Fitness Centers seem to print money in the desert. I assume this is somewhat similar in Denver but that Denver's wonderful parks serve this purpose even better. Wash Park has always been the most popular and I assume one could still easily find a pick-up Volleyball game.

Googling for answers

Then I moved to the built environment and I focused on shopping or similar activities. Has anything much changed in the last 10 years?

With respect to malls, Survey says:

• Cherry Creek Shopping Center
• 16th Street Mall
• Denver Pavilions
• Park Meadows Mall

For more of a Denver specific areas of shopping etc popularity, Survey Says:

• LoDo - Larimer Square - Union Station
• Cherry Creek North
• 16th Street Mall
• SoBo/South Broadway
• Art District on Santa Fe
• Denver Central Market - The Source

Note: While the 16th Street Mall's current popularity may be lagging from Google's POV it is still very unique and appealing.

Not sure how important but most of the above have less density. In many instances it goes to the historical appeal along with a nice tenant mix.

And all this amounts to... well have a cup of coffee on me

I live in Central Park and love walking. I typically get in 6-10 miles per week on purposeful walks and I have a great place to do that. I can also walk to the grocery store, the Stanley, etc. I looked it up and my house gets a walk score of 74/100, but I doubt most Denver neighborhoods have that many options to walk to. I still have to drive to the gym though.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

. I typically get in 6-10 miles per week on purposeful walks and I have a great place to do that.

"Purposeful" walks. I used to do those. Now I don't have time, and in a post-commute world, my incidental walking is down to maybe a 3,000 steps per day average. That's the difference - if I lived in Europe, I'd average twice that without doing anything out of the course of my normal frenzied day; without anything purposeful.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

...Denver's 16th Street Mall has the landscaping appeal but instead of adding good retailers they've lost good retailers....

Correction...had landscaping appeal. All of that is getting ripped out with the new 16th st mall plan - or so that's what I deciphered from the terrible plan they came up with.

Greenery and streetscape is literally the best thing the City has done in the past 20 years. The ROI for streets and trees and pleasant street level experiences is enormous in terms of new tax dollars generated. Think S Broadway 20 years ago, 14th Street 15 years ago, LoHi before the pedestrian bridge (?) years ago, Brighton 10 years ago. Cities really need to take a step back and invest in pedestrian and landscaping infrastructure...the rest will follow!