The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nite]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Has there been any consideration to extending the Bloor-Danforth line west from Kipling to meet the Hurontario LRT?

While there is a GO Train that connects the two, it runs on CP trackage and I doubt CP wants to allow more passenger service on that line.

There was a plan in the past but the Mississauga mayor rejected it.

Mississauga’s growth was not without its challenges. The city council led by Mayor Hazel McCallion strongly advocated a no-debt approach to fiscal management, and largely funded the construction of its infrastructure through development charges. It was also frugal in building public transit infrastructure. Proposals to extend the Toronto subway into Mississauga were rejected by McCallion, who felt Mississauga taxpayers shouldn’t be burdened by such a project. Proposals to build a regional transit centre at Kipling station failed to materialize as Mississauga, Toronto and the province of Ontario argued over who should pay for it.

https://transittoronto.ca/regional/2703.shtml

So just you typical conservative politician doing their thing

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Can always do high floor and/or dual power third rail/catenary.

Studies of the line have been a failure of imagination much like studies of the SRT.

High floor makes street running more challenging. Why make it more difficult.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That would be a better solution, but the best solution IMO is to extend the Ontario line along the Gardiner to Sherway, then along the rail corridor until it would split into two branches. One that would continue alone the (widened) rail corridor and another that would run elevated up Dixie and then onto Burnhampthorpe to Square One. It would then head to the Highway 403 ROW until either forming a loop with the rail corridor branch or until terminating at the Churchill transit stop which is currently part of the busway. In that case the other arm would terminate at the Streetsville GO stop. For most of the day a short shuttle train would connect Milton to the subway while it would run all the way to Union at peak.

This sounds like a very long route for the Ontario Line - nearly as lengthy as simply extending Line 2 to Hurontario.

I think in an ideal world i'd like to see the Ontario Line West extension run up either Dufferin (to Cedervale), Keele/Weston (to Eglinton), or into Etobicoke via the Queensway. The West End sorely needs better N/S transit options - those buses on Ossington are always full!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This sounds like a very long route for the Ontario Line - nearly as lengthy as simply extending Line 2 to Hurontario.

I think in an ideal world i'd like to see the Ontario Line West extension run up either Dufferin (to Cedervale), Keele/Weston (to Eglinton), or into Etobicoke via the Queensway. The West End sorely needs better N/S transit options - those buses on Ossington are always full!

Yes it would be VERY long. Reminds me a bit of the Central Line in London which is a total of 74km and whose longest end-end trip is about 55km from West Ruslip to Epping. Very similar to the 51km of Ont line from Winston Churchill station the west to Leslie or Don Mills station in the northeast if it were extended that far on both ends.

Length is ok if you have wide stop spacing and reasonably high speeds, neither of which line 2 has. It's 20 stops and one transfer from Islington and Osgoode stations including start and end. And that's before any extension. Meanwhile there would only be 8 stops on the Ont line before leaving the city limits. The ones already planned (Osgoode, Spadina, Bathurst, Exhibition) along with the one's I'd recommend at King/Roncy, Humber/Queensway, Islington, and Sherway.

I totally agree about Ossington and Dufferin buses tho. Personally I'd make both into streetcars and give them King-style priority treatment!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

High floor makes street running more challenging. Why make it more difficult.

It doesn't make it more challenging enough to make it worth it to rebuild stations and tunnels to enable thru running.
you add maybe 20 m to your platform built works length
https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.11775,-11..._dTKveVfCCghmvbMaPu9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I totally agree about Ossington and Dufferin buses tho. Personally I'd make both into streetcars and give them King-style priority treatment!

Now we're talkin'!

As an east-ender i'm spoiled by the Broadview/Queen/Gerrard streetcars, along with the Danforth subway. Even the Pape bus is fine to ride when it gets busy because I know eventually it'll be Ontario Line.

I know part of the reason of why Finch LRT came to be was because the Finch bus was the busiest in the TTC network. Something similar for Dufferin, or a streetcar, would be very welcome.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Now we're talkin'!

As an east-ender i'm spoiled by the Broadview/Queen/Gerrard streetcars, along with the Danforth subway. Even the Pape bus is fine to ride when it gets busy because I know eventually it'll be Ontario Line.

I know part of the reason of why Finch LRT came to be was because the Finch bus was the busiest in the TTC network. Something similar for Dufferin, or a streetcar, would be very welcome.

You must live very close to me. I'm at Dundas and Logan. From my front door it's a 5 min or less walk to 4 streetcar lines. The 501, 504,505, and 506. And ya that Pape bus is almost always empty and you can take it all the way to Union Station in about 15 minutes depending on traffic or road closures.

[FrAnKs]

Here are some news about the Québec City's tramway. What hapenned today is very important for the future of this project.




(Translated from French)
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/196...aterale-julien-leblanc-depassement-couts

Ottawa will finance the Quebec tramway and its cost overruns

An agreement in principle has been reached between Quebec and Ottawa to renew the bilateral infrastructure funding agreement.

It was midnight minus one to finance the tramway project and several other infrastructure projects in Quebec. In a tweet published Monday morning, the federal Minister of Infrastructure, Dominic LeBlanc, confirms that Quebec was able to submit a list of projects in time to obtain federal funds.

The program contained $2.7 billion for Quebec projects. The government of François Legault had to have provided a list before March 31 to have access to it, otherwise the sums would no longer have been available.

We have reached an agreement in principle with the Government of Quebec, writes Minister LeBlanc. Dozens of communities across Quebec will benefit from this collaboration, he adds.

The minister responsible for the Capitale-Nationale region, Jonatan Julien, confirms for his part that the agreement with Ottawa allows the residual sums of the bilateral agreement to be used. He says that the flexibility obtained from the federal government is a great step forward for future agreements. Jonatan Julien thanks Dominic LeBlanc for his openness.

Among the flexibility, there is the possibility of sharing the “increase in the costs of projects already submitted”. This is an important concession for the Quebec tramway project, the total bill for which is not yet known. In Minister Julien's office, it is pointed out that "the project could have been compromised given the importance of the contribution at stake".

The federal government had pledged to fund 40% of the streetcar project when it was at $3.3 billion. Today's agreement ensures that it will finance its share, in the same proportions, regardless of the final cost. Quebec will not have to renegotiate later.

The agreement between Quebec and Ottawa was concluded at the end of last week. In addition to the Quebec tramway, there is also the project for the blue line of the Montreal metro.

" Very good news "
On a business mission in Scandinavia, the mayor of Quebec Bruno Marchand was delighted with this agreement. He says he never doubted that this agreement was going to be concluded.

Very good news for Quebec. he reacted. The federal government will be present for cost overruns, which it did not do in other projects before.

"Some people doubted, some were afraid, some threw in the towel, it's not my style, I trusted the people who represented us"

— A quote from Bruno Marchand, Mayor of Quebec
He congratulated the work accomplished by the ministers involved, both provincially and federally. The project will bring "billions" in economic benefits for the City of Quebec, he recalls.

With this milestone achieved, the next step for the tramway project is to agree with the consortia involved, and to finalize the contracts.

One step closer
The Leader of the Opposition at City Hall, Claude Villeneuve, is very relieved that Ottawa is also financing the cost overruns of the tramway.

Last November, Mr. Villeneuve described the Marchand administration as “vulnerable” in this file. He was concerned at the time about the lack of pressure exerted by the mayor on the provincial government so that the cost overruns of the tramway could be covered by the Federal Infrastructure Program.

It's only good, we have to get our share, we'll remember that there was a game of negotiations with the former administration with Montreal as well so that we could get our share of infrastructure investments, so I see that very positively, he reacted.

Are we getting closer to a first sod? In fact, we are doing everything we can to respect the deadline which is already planned, specifies Claude Villeneuve.

Équipe Priorité Québec sees this agreement in two shades. The head of training, Patrick Paquet, is satisfied because he feared that the only contribution of the people of Quebec would increase.

Being against the project, he is however worried about the progress of the file. We may have a tram project that will really start very soon, he adds.

With the collaboration of Olivier Lemieux, Louis-Philippe Arsenault and Raphaël Beaumont-Drouin

[Reecemartin]

I don’t share videos on here very frequently these days, but I’m very happy with how this one on the diamond came out and a bunch of people from the community helped out with it to create a super cool multi camera effect of a train crossing the guideway, check it out:

https://youtu.be/Ll54zAqvFUI

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

Here are some news about the Québec City's tramway. What hapenned today is very important for the future of this project.

(Translated from French)
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/196...aterale-julien-leblanc-depassement-couts

Although I'm very happy for Quebec City, I can't help but be frustrated that City of Ottawa never gets this kind of deal. The City ended up paying nearly 50% of both Stage 1 and Stage 2 of the O-Train network. The Province and Feds did not provide a cent for the additional costs. Meanwhile, most cities pay didly squat for their rail expansions.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Although I'm very happy for Quebec City, I can't help but be frustrated that City of Ottawa never gets this kind of deal. The City ended up paying nearly 50% of both Stage 1 and Stage 2 of the O-Train network. The Province and Feds did not provide a cent for the additional costs. Meanwhile, most cities pay didly squat for their rail expansions.

I would argue that Ottawa's money is going much further as a result however since the city is actually willing to put the money up. Ottawa is building a 60km rapid transit network in a span of just a few years for a city of just over 1 million people - that's absolutely incredible. Ottawa is basically building a network the size of toronto's entire subway network prior the Vaughan Extension in 2017. In a decade.

Perhaps it may not be viewed as "fair" - but had Ottawa refused to put money up, I suspect the network wouldn't have been 61km either. Hamilton is getting $3.4 billion all in to build a 14km LRT line sure, but it's getting about 2.3 kilometres of at-grade tram per 100,000 people while Ottawa is getting 6.1km of grade-separated rapid transit for every 100,000 residents.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I would argue that Ottawa's money is going much further as a result however since the city is actually willing to put the money up. Ottawa is building a 60km rapid transit network in a span of just a few years for a city of just over 1 million people - that's absolutely incredible. Ottawa is basically building a network the size of toronto's entire subway network prior the Vaughan Extension in 2017. In a decade.

Perhaps it may not be viewed as "fair" - but had Ottawa refused to put money up, I suspect the network wouldn't have been 61km either. Hamilton is getting $3.4 billion all in to build a 14km LRT line sure, but it's getting about 2.3 kilometres of at-grade tram per 100,000 people while Ottawa is getting 6.1km of grade-separated rapid transit for every 100,000 residents.

Ottawa 'benefits' as it was already paying significant operating costs for extensive bus service, so realizing savings, and using that to pay for LRT maintenance is easy.

Hamilton has outright refused to pay for anything, including any incremental service cost-unless something has recently changed.

Does the Hamilton amount include 30 years of operating? I find media reports in Ontario especially quoting the life-cycle costs of some projects, and only the hard construction costs of others. That is how the Cambridge ION project is now above $4 billion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Although I'm very happy for Quebec City, I can't help but be frustrated that City of Ottawa never gets this kind of deal. The City ended up paying nearly 50% of both Stage 1 and Stage 2 of the O-Train network. The Province and Feds did not provide a cent for the additional costs. Meanwhile, most cities pay didly squat for their rail expansions.

Transportation infrastructure funding feels ad hoc in Canada and the federal government, while willing to shower money on other areas, doesn't invest much overall. An example transformative program in the past was the US federal Highway Act and they paid 90%; Wikipedia says the stated goal was to connect any city over 50,000. With that kind of funding you can build a coherent national system and partnerships with other levels of government become easier. I am not sure what the Canadian plan is supposed to be since people here seem not to want freeway or road building or tolls yet the federal government sets high immigration targets.

I would also say that most Canadian cities are behind in terms of transport infrastructure. So while it's true there is inconsistency in funding levels, the lucky places get maybe 60% of the infrastructure they should and the unlucky ones get 20%. It's not that Quebec City and Montreal or strategic ridings in Ontario get absurd white elephant projects, they just get something a bit closer to reasonable first world infrastructure funding.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I would argue that Ottawa's money is going much further as a result however since the city is actually willing to put the money up. Ottawa is building a 60km rapid transit network in a span of just a few years for a city of just over 1 million people - that's absolutely incredible. Ottawa is basically building a network the size of toronto's entire subway network prior the Vaughan Extension in 2017. In a decade.

Perhaps it may not be viewed as "fair" - but had Ottawa refused to put money up, I suspect the network wouldn't have been 61km either. Hamilton is getting $3.4 billion all in to build a 14km LRT line sure, but it's getting about 2.3 kilometres of at-grade tram per 100,000 people while Ottawa is getting 6.1km of grade-separated rapid transit for every 100,000 residents.

Ottawa benefited from good timing, building it's 60 km when prices were relatively cheap. The City now wants the Province/Feds to pay 100% of Stage 3 (with dubious benefits), and I doubt it will be funded. Same for the kilometers of reasonable BRT plans that are planned (mostly because the City is hyper-focused on Stage 3 and probably hasn't requested funding for the BRTs).

Originally Posted by someone123

Transportation infrastructure funding feels ad hoc in Canada and the federal government, while willing to shower money on other areas, doesn't invest much overall. An example transformative program in the past was the US federal Highway Act and they paid 90%; Wikipedia says the stated goal was to connect any city over 50,000. With that kind of funding you can build a coherent national system and partnerships with other levels of government become easier. I am not sure what the Canadian plan is supposed to be since people here seem not to want freeway or road building or tolls yet the federal government sets high immigration targets.

I would also say that most Canadian cities are behind in terms of transport infrastructure. So while it's true there is inconsistency in funding levels, the lucky places get maybe 60% of the infrastructure they should and the unlucky ones get 20%. It's not that Quebec City and Montreal or strategic ridings in Ontario get absurd white elephant projects, they just get something a bit closer to reasonable first world infrastructure funding.

I would probably call the Scarborough Subway and part of the Vaughn extension white elephants. Stations are much bigger than they need to be (Highway 401 and Downsview Park in particular) and portions could have been trenched, surface or elevated. Overall though, I agree we're not seeing too many white elephants.

That said, the City of Ottawa's situation resulted in small stations (smaller than the aforementioned Vaughn extension stations, but in some cases x10+ the ridership), no heated areas, single tracking on Line 2 and other cost-cutting measures.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

Transportation infrastructure funding feels ad hoc in Canada and the federal government, while willing to shower money on other areas, doesn't invest much overall. An example transformative program in the past was the US federal Highway Act and they paid 90%; Wikipedia says the stated goal was to connect any city over 50,000. With that kind of funding you can build a coherent national system and partnerships with other levels of government become easier. I am not sure what the Canadian plan is supposed to be since people here seem not to want freeway or road building or tolls yet the federal government sets high immigration targets.

I would also say that most Canadian cities are behind in terms of transport infrastructure. So while it's true there is inconsistency in funding levels, the lucky places get maybe 60% of the infrastructure they should and the unlucky ones get 20%. It's not that Quebec City and Montreal or strategic ridings in Ontario get absurd white elephant projects, they just get something a bit closer to reasonable first world infrastructure funding.

It is anything but ad-hoc. It is a per capita transfer with decision making delegated to provinces, with some guard rails. We have to remember that when we compare to other countries that we are by far the most decentralized country in the world. Our central infrastructure funding isn't even proportionally smaller.

The numbers quoted for the USA are typically over 10 years (which typically flow over 15 or 20 years) and in a country ten times as large population wise.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Ottawa 'benefits' as it was already paying significant operating costs for extensive bus service, so realizing savings, and using that to pay for LRT maintenance is easy.

Hamilton has outright refused to pay for anything, including any incremental service cost-unless something has recently changed.

Does the Hamilton amount include 30 years of operating? I find media reports in Ontario especially quoting the life-cycle costs of some projects, and only the hard construction costs of others. That is how the Cambridge ION project is now above $4 billion

Hamilton is capital cost only, the City will be on the hook for operating costs.

Hamilton has had a ridership growth strategy for the last few years with service increases and has just released a draft of a complete redesign of their bus network in anticipation of the LRT. It didn't kick in capital costs for the LRT at all, but it isn't paying nothing either as it will be paying for the operating subsidy once it opens.

Hamilton's capital cost is quite high as it involves a lot of complex utility reconstructions and relocations. The scope is a lot larger than many transit projects - including some large municipal bridge reconstructions, sewage and utility replacements and modernizations, grade separations, huge property requirements, new public roads, public realm improvements, etc. all through a dense urban fabric.

The phase 1 Kitchener LRT comparatively ran a lot of it's length through railway ROWs which is probably the cheapest way to build a rail line.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It is anything but ad-hoc. It is a per capita transfer with decision making delegated to provinces, with some guard rails. We have to remember that when we compare to other countries that we are by far the most decentralized country in the world. Our central infrastructure funding isn't even proportionally smaller.

In practice even when the federal funding is consistent it creates different outcomes in different provinces because they have different resources. This regime favours the bigger or wealthier provinces and cities that are better able to take advantage of cost sharing, because they have the money to contribute to unlock the federal portion and because they can apply for the full range of programs.

The numbers quoted for the USA are typically over 10 years (which typically flow over 15 or 20 years) and in a country ten times as large population wise.

Why would total population matter for the proportion? Note that I was referring to a 1950's era program. I'm not sure the USA does as well with infrastructure development today. We could in theory have something like a "highways act for trains" in Canada that attempts to construct a coherent system and doesn't require major investment from provinces and municipalities to get going. Maybe that's not a good idea or not viable, but it's not what we have right now. Right now it seems transport infrastructure lags population growth and projects tend to take a long time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That said, the City of Ottawa's situation resulted in small stations (smaller than the aforementioned Vaughn extension stations, but in some cases x10+ the ridership), no heated areas, single tracking on Line 2 and other cost-cutting measures.

I would say the situation for Broadway in Vancouver is similar. Only going to Arbutus and TransLink said the 99 was expected to be at capacity on opening day. The stations around here seem to be budget level which is OK for some (like the more densely spaced ones in Coquitlam) but not others (so-so connections at transfer points, limited entry points to underground at busy intersections like City Hall. The overall transit system is pretty good given the constraints but I don't think the constraints are optimal. The payoff to spending a bit more and getting a better system would be positive.

In Halifax/NS, whether there is any significant transit budget at all depends on the provincial government and currently there isn't one so the ability to unlock federal funding is ~0 (or at least there is a sense of needing to wait for better cost-sharing realities) and transit development is ~0 (municipality can paint some new lanes and buy more buses) while population growth was around 4% last year.

Another example I can think of is how the Champlain and Jacques Cartier bridges are apparently managed by the federal government. Was the Champlain replacement 100% federally funded? Apparently they considered tolls in 2015 but decided against them. Must be nice.

[FrAnKs]

It was announced yesterday that the Québec City's Tramway will be an Alstom Citadis Spirit. We already know that it will be built at the Alstom factory in La Pocatière, Québec

Here's a YouTube video of that model:
https://youtu.be/qqk6izbYJ98

[Innsertnamehere]

Quickly becoming the Canadian mainstay for LRVs - Ottawa, Toronto, Mississauga, now Quebec City.. Hamilton will more than likely follow as well.