[Halifax] West End Mall Future Growth Node 15 Buildings | 90m | Proposed

[mleblanc]

20-50 year timeline? What an embarrassment. Most of the lunatics making a scene look to be 65+, I'm willing to bet most of them won't even be alive to see the results of what they are protesting against. Classic NIMBYism.

[midasmull]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

20-50 year timeline? What an embarrassment. Most of the lunatics making a scene look to be 65+, I'm willing to bet most of them won't even be alive to see the results of what they are protesting against. Classic NIMBYism.

Regarding the timelines, what most people fail to consider is that these properties have existing tenants, many of which are National/Multi-National corporations with long-term leases and renewal rights that can push the tenancy out 15-80 years. If Wal-Mart or the Tim Horton's franchisee has a profitable store, they would have to be heavily incentivized by the owner to leave or to give up their renewal rights.

The owner of the property is an Ontario pension plan whose mandate would not be to develop, but ensure a certain return threshold is met. If they have to take a number of decades to complete the development in a safe, financially prudent fashion while continuing to meet their return thresholds, they will - this would mean avoiding early termination payments to their tenants.

[LikesBikes]

Absolutely shameful behaviour by the atendees. They should raise the proposed heights out of spite.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by LikesBikes

Absolutely shameful behaviour by the atendees. They should raise the proposed heights out of spite.

They seem like the tomato people here in Moncton (so named because the shadow cast by a proposed 10 storey apartment building would fall on a nearby resident's tomato garden, and would suppress her agricultural yield). A vigorous opposition arose, leading to a petition campaign fueled by misinformation and one particularly aggressive petitioner frightening neighbourhood residents into signing the bloody thing, probably leading to the development being kiboshed. It is both funny and sad at the same time.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by midasmull

The owner of the property is an Ontario pension plan whose mandate would not be to develop, but ensure a certain return threshold is met. If they have to take a number of decades to complete the development in a safe, financially prudent fashion while continuing to meet their return thresholds, they will - this would mean avoiding early termination payments to their tenants.

Public sector pension plans in Canada, including the province and HRM, are probably the largest owners of residential & commercial properties in Canada.
CPPIB, OMERS,QPP are the largest and your insurance provider has a large property portfolio. In effect you and I own malls, office towers and apartments.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by egb

This Twitter thread gives some flavour:

https://mobile.twitter.com/WilsonKM2/status/1646275967571177473

I guess someone came with a bullhorn?

In Tennessee that gets you expelled from the house by Republican's.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by beyeas

In Tennessee that gets you expelled from the house by Republican's.

No being the wrong Colour with a Bullhorn gets you expelled. Raised the profile of those young men by ten to twenty years. They are not going away.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Good god... it's not like there aren't any other tall buildings around, plus it's right at a major transit station. What could make more sense than to build this up? People need to shake their heads and try to think for a change...

Yup, enough of the public consultations. Just build it.

Someone said on CBC this morning "we don't want Halifax to become Manhattan" LOL! There zero danger of that ever happening.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kzt79

Someone said on CBC this morning "we don't want Halifax to become Manhattan" LOL! There zero danger of that ever happening.

Peninsular Halifax faces significant physical constraints, just like the island of Manhattan, so, although we will never see massive clusters of supertalls like in NYC, there is certainly a risk of markedly increased densification with the displacement of peninsular SFH neighbourhoods.

You might snort in derision now, but Halifax in 50 years might look significantly different, especially on the peninsula.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You might snort in derision now, but Halifax in 50 years might look significantly different, especially on the peninsula.

One could hope so!

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Peninsular Halifax faces significant physical constraints, just like the island of Manhattan, so, although we will never see massive clusters of supertalls like in NYC, there is certainly a risk of markedly increased densification with the displacement of peninsular SFH neighbourhoods.

You might snort in derision now, but Halifax in 50 years might look significantly different, especially on the peninsula.

I certainly hope so! Despite the best efforts of the city to resist any change or progress, we can hope at least some will happen.

Even so - 100+ years from now the peninsula won't remotely resemble Manhattan today.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Unless Halifax suddenly becomes the financial capital of North America, a comparison to Manhattan probably isn't viable.

I would hope that in fifty years Halifax peninsula has a good mix of tall buildings and density while maintaining its historical character by keeping a good portion of the older stuff intact. I would also hope that the densification spills over to Dartmouth (as it is starting to now) and that Halifax sees fit to start planning for higher-order transit before it becomes too late.

As a side note, I would also like to think that in fifty years we will do better as a society in relating to one another, and put an end to the ageist attitudes that appear to be popular today. It's one thing to disagree with a bunch of NIMBYs that are protesting something that you are hoping for, but IMHO it's no reason to disrespect them based on their age (in the way that the twitter twit felt was appropriate).

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Unless Halifax suddenly becomes the financial capital of North America, a comparison to Manhattan probably isn't viable.

I would hope that in fifty years Halifax peninsula has a good mix of tall buildings and density while maintaining its historical character by keeping a good portion of the older stuff intact. I would also hope that the densification spills over to Dartmouth (as it is starting to now) and that Halifax sees fit to start planning for higher-order transit before it becomes too late.

As a side note, I would also like to think that in fifty years we will do better as a society in relating to one another, and put an end to the ageist attitudes that appear to be popular today. It's one thing to disagree with a bunch of NIMBYs that are protesting something that you are hoping for, but IMHO it's no reason to disrespect them based on their age (in the way that the twitter twit felt was appropriate).

I agree, and not just bc I'm easing ever so gently into the early years of "middle age" myself.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Here's an article about the "meeting" from the CBC. Sounds like the whole event was a bit of a cluster____.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...opment-halifax-shopping-centre-1.6810752

A special shout-out to councillor Cleary, who, if I'm reading the article correctly, has absolutely no idea how to run a meeting, and seems absolutely clueless about engaging with the citizens of his district. I'm not sure if he realizes this, but when he is voted in, his job is to serve the people of his district, not just the ones who agree with his opinions. Speaking poorly of them in public is not a good look... it only serves to inflame the people who are feeling threatened by this development, and does nothing to help everybody understand that this is an important development for the city and why it is as such. NIMBYs will be NIMBYs, but they are still people that he is supposed to be working for, and thus his job requires him to be respectful at least. Hint: the councillor needs to be the "adult in the room"...

That said, I can surely empathize with those who came to the meeting to learn and show support. Bringing a bullhorn to an indoor meeting about a development is clearly inappropriate, and hopefully the temperature will tone down for the next meeting, if there is one (is there a requirement for one?).

Anyhow, the underground transit hub is a definite plus (and perhaps part of the reason for such a long timeline, as it will surely be a huge job), and I hope that the people living in that area will be able to tolerate the noise and activities surrounding a large construction site for a very long time, as it will be part of their lives for sure.

Another point that struck me as being odd, is the framing of this project as some sort of solution for the immediate housing crisis. I could see it if the timeline was 2 or 3 years, but at 20 years for phase 1, this is just long-term densification (and transit improvement), not a solution for the housing crisis as it is at the moment (which is a whole cluster____ of its own...).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Another point that struck me as being odd, is the framing of this project as some sort of solution for the immediate housing crisis. I could see it if the timeline was 2 or 3 years, but at 20 years for phase 1, this is just long-term densification (and transit improvement), not a solution for the housing crisis as it is at the moment (which is a whole cluster____ of its own...).

True although the current housing situation is partly a function of a bunch of incremental historical development decisions like this one with people saying no no no, we don't want this greenfield development, we need these heights reduced on the peninsula, we don't want this road, we don't want this bridge, and so on.

The city should be pre-approving a lot of future housing developments that can be accelerated to support future growth. If you go back a few years, the high-end growth scenario for the city was far below what is now playing out. I doubt there is any plan even to handle the current growth continuing for 10 or 20 years. Who knows if it will but it's possible and should at least be planned for.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Good points.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

True although the current housing situation is partly a function of a bunch of incremental historical development decisions like this one with people saying no no no, we don't want this greenfield development, we need these heights reduced on the peninsula, we don't want this road, we don't want this bridge, and so on.

The city should be pre-approving a lot of future housing developments that can be accelerated to support future growth. If you go back a few years, the high-end growth scenario for the city was far below what is now playing out. I doubt there is any plan even to handle the current growth continuing for 10 or 20 years. Who knows if it will but it's possible and should at least be planned for.

Any stock tips ? Any prediction of interest rates in the next 3-5 years ? Will the Russians cease the invasion of Ukraine ? Where will the Dow Jones be in 3 years ?
Here is my prediction : the crisis in homelessness and drug addiction will be greater next year than this year and will then become worse each year for several years and then HRM will be akin to Vancouver, Hamilton,Toronto and other Canadian cities. Councillors and the majority of citizens do not understand the disaster that is unfolding; or,perhaps they don't want to envision the difficulties that lie ahead.Two police officers are about to be deployed in an office in Alderney Landing in the hope they will cope with the problems identified by businesses.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Two police officers are about to be deployed in an office in Alderney Landing in the hope they will cope with the problems identified by businesses.

I doubt that 2 police officers would be enough to handle the problems found within Alderney Landing itself, much less the surrounding area.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Surprised that they are getting any officers at all, as I was under the impression that council wanted to "defund the police".

Regardless, I think that all points are valid. Increased population without adequate housing supply will always result in price increases, and the people at the bottom of the food chain losing out.

There are other forces in play, like the infiltration of amateur lab drugs that are highly addictive and can be deadly, the 'defunding' of mental health services from the fed and provincial level (for decades), etc., etc., etc....

A fairly deep hole has been dug, and it's going to take a long time to dig ourselves out of it. The feds allowing 1 million new people (in 2022) into Canada at a time when there already is a housing crisis doesn't help much, either. They're digging a deeper hole when the opposite should be happening. It's hard to find good people to vote for these days...

[IanWatson]

What I don't understand about this opposition is that these residents are winning the lottery. They have a detached home on the Peninsula, where the number of detached homes will literally never be higher than it is today. Meanwhile, developments like this West End Mall ones are replacing parking lots with more desirable uses and services. We hear so much, "if only I could have been one of the lucky ones in Vancouver who bought a house 30 years ago", but this is literally what's happening now in Halifax - these people are the Vancouverites of 30 years ago.