California High Speed Rail Thread

[Busy Bee]

I understand it that Brightline - or whatever tge service will be called as well as whether or not it will even remain a separate entity from CHSR - will establish the Rancho Cucamonga as the terminal but will also be built to Palmdale when the CHSR mountain tunnel comes online. This would allow a LAUS-LV train and an Rancho Cucamonga-LV which would be more convenient for inland residents.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by edale

And I think that would be an improvement. The 'major' towns/cities of the Central Valley would still have access to the HSR. They'd have to drive 30 mins to an hour to reach a station, but how is that any different than people driving to an airport? They would still be getting a huge amenity by having easy, fast access to SF and LA (eventually Sac and SD, too), even if the train didn't pass through the center of town. The whole point of HSR should be connecting the Bay Area to SoCal as fast and easily as possible. When you have mission creep, such as serving every cow town in the CV, the project suffers, as we've seen. Land acquisition and road and utility relocation in the CV has been a HUGE waste of time, money, and resources. These issues would have been much, much simpler had the I-5 alignment been selected. Because these issues were dealt with when the 5 was constructed!

Oh well, that ship sailed long ago. It is what it is at this point. Looking forward to seeing bullet trains connect Madera and Bakersfield in 2030!

This x1000.

CAHSR should have been designed as a SF-LA bullet train, with no other competing objectives. To this point, it's much more of a make-work project for areas like Bakersfield than anything having to do with mobility.

The "but the direct, cheaper route doesn't serve downtown Bakersfield therefore people won't ride it" is bizarre. There isn't going to be much Central Valley ridership. And if there were, it wouldn't be harder to access via the direct route. It isn't like most LA residents live walking distance to Union Station, so why would we have such standards in the Central Valley?

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I understand it that Brightline - or whatever tge service will be called as well as whether or not it will even remain a separate entity from CHSR - will establish the Rancho Cucamonga as the terminal but will also be built to Palmdale when the CHSR mountain tunnel comes online. This would allow a LAUS-LV train and an Rancho Cucamonga-LV which would be more convenient for inland residents.

The Brightline trains will almost certainly terminate in Anaheim along with CAHSR Phase 1. This means the Las Vegas trains will be accessible in Burbank, LA Union Station, and Anaheim.

The Metrolink tracks between LA Union and San Bernardino won't be upgraded until CAHSR Phase 2, which can't happen until Phase 1 is operational, but I'd bet that that terminus will be extended eastward toward San Bernardino or Riverside rather than duplicate LA Union Station.

[Busy Bee]

Makes sense.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Makes sense.

...it's not particularly useful to look this far forward, but because the Brightline trains inevitably won't match the CASHR trains, they'll have to have different maintenance facilities in Anaheim.

If there had been a public partnership between Nevada and California, the whole thing could have been coordinated from the beginning, and construction could have been phased so as to keep engineers, consultants, and work crews consistently employed.

Part of the problem with a joint agency would have been the fact that most of the route would be in California, with only about 50 miles of track in Nevada.

LA>Phoenix is closer to 50/50, but still roughly 3/5 in California, and even more if the San Diego part of the Phase 2 plan is considered.

The Interstate Highways blew past this problem since the federal highway trust fund paid for 95% of construction across the barren government-owned lands in the West.

[Busy Bee]

If I was a betting man I'd wager there is about a 90% chance that both services wind up with a Siemens Velaro varient - especially with the DB operator concession - and if so there is the possibility that maintenance could be shared and CaHSR equipment could be run on the LV line if it came to that.

[38 Geary]

Foster + Partners and Arup collaborate on California High-Speed Rail’s first four Central Valley stations
3rd April 2023

The Central Valley stations will become the grand entrances to America’s first high-speed rail segment – marking a major milestone for sustainable, decarbonized transportation for all Californians.

California High-Speed Rail (CA HSR) has selected the joint venture of Foster + Partners and Arup to design the Merced, Fresno, Kings/Tulare, and Bakersfield stations that will serve high-speed rail passengers on the initial 171-mile segment. Foster + Partners and Arup are collaborating on planning, architecture, and engineering for the four new stations that will serve as models of design for stations planned along the entire 500-mile Los Angeles/Anaheim to San Francisco system.

The team is utilizing its local knowledge combined with its global high-speed rail station experience while adapting a systemwide kit of parts previously created by Foster + Partners to design the four Central Valley stations. The joint venture will be providing management and design services as part of the first Notice to Proceed (NTP 1) to complete the design development and configuration footprint for each station site with an option to progress to the second Notice to Proceed (NTP 2), which will include final design, construction ready documents, construction, and commissioning support. The duration for NTP 1 is estimated to be 30 months.

The joint venture is set to exceed the Authority’s Small Business participation goals by engaging a team of diverse, local experts and subcontractors throughout all essential parts of the design development for the new stations.

Stefan Behling, Head of Studio, Foster + Partners, said: “California High-Speed Rail is a truly pioneering project which has the potential to shape the future of sustainable travel in California and across America. After delivering our systemwide vision plan, we are now delighted to be working with Arup on detailed designs for the network’s first four stations.”

John Eddy, Principal, Arup, noted: “Once complete, this segment of high-speed rail will provide much-needed linkages between the diverse communities that comprise California’s Central Valley. We’re thrilled to utilize our global expertise in high-speed rail design to support the California High-Speed Rail Authority. We look forward to collaborating with Foster + Partners and our subconsultants on this landmark investment in sustainable transportation.”

California High-Speed Rail is under construction in the Central Valley today with a goal of having the first operable line slated to be complete between 2030 -2033.

https://www.fosterandpartners.com/news/f...tter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=CHSR

[38 Geary]

And the images:





https://www.fosterandpartners.com/news/f...tter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=CHSR

[38 Geary]

Great choice for architecture firm.

Foster + Partners has experience building HSR stations as well as other large scale transportation developments.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by homebucket

https://www.fosterandpartners.com/news/f...tter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=CHSR

Great article!! Thank you for sharing this. Hope they complete for the next 7 years to ten years from now. Getting ready!!

[markb1]

Originally Posted by edale

I've seen this claimed a few times, but I thought Brightline was going to terminate in Rancho Cucamonga, not Palmdale/Lancaster?

It's apparently LA Metro and Caltrans that will connect Palmdale to Victorville:

https://www.metro.net/projects/high-desert-corridor/

[Crawford]

Very cool to have Foster & Partners working on the Central Valley stations. Will be awesome, iconic architecture. Though I hope the canopies will offer shade, not like that initial rendering. CV sun is intense.

I just wish they'd be working on the stations that matter. These stations are completely irrelevant to CAHSR's success. I still cannot believe that the U.S., the globe's laggard on HSR, has decided to test HSR by running service to Merced, Fresno, Tulare, and Bakersfield, which is some of the most hostile HSR geography in the U.S. It would be like first testing a national Netherlands-level bike mobility project in exurban Phoenix, or first testing a national blizzard warning system in Miami. We have to pray that CA voters ignore the initial near-zero ridership, and push this through to completion, where high ridership is quite likely.

The first TGV line in France was Paris to Lyon. Biggest city to second biggest city. Most transit-oriented city to second most transit oriented city. TGV is the global HSR gold standard.

[Busy Bee]

^^^

...has decided to test HSR by running service to Merced, Fresno, Tulare, and Bakersfield, which is some of the most hostile HSR geography in the U.S

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean hostile as in geography/climate or hostile as in unlikely to produce much ridership between CV city pairs? How is the CV IOS hostile geography? It's flat as a pancake.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

^^^

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean hostile as in geography/climate or hostile as in unlikely to produce much ridership between CV city pairs? How is the CV hostile geography? It's flat as a pancake.

Hostile as in unlikely to provide ridership.

The CV has some of the lowest transit ridership and highest vehicle ownership in the U.S., which is saying something. It's extremely sprawly, with extremely weak urban cores. Very little walkability, bikeability, or transit orientation. Very little downtown-to-downtown modal demand. So all of the necessary ingredients for HSR are missing.

It's like planning a subway line in NYC by testing it in Alabama, and then concluding the subway won't generate ridership. It's insanity. CA just needs to push this through, bc there will be an avalanche of right-wing rhetoric once this opens. "See America isn't like Europe, dummies! Tulare has no train demand. We like our trucks. We're nothing like Paris or Frankfurt. Ha!"

I bet you the overwhelming source of ridership during the first phase will be train buffs. I'd definitely ride it. It will be busiest on weekends and holidays. But as a functional tool, no way.

[Busy Bee]

I think the CHSRA knows full well the IOS will function as a demonstration line that will create awe and enthuse the pols to get the rest of the system built. I highly doubt they're planning on touting the robust ridership as evidence that will convince them to get going on the mountain crossings. They aren't myopic. I fully expect the true function of the IOS is public enthusiasm to finish Phase 1.

[Crawford]

I hope you're right. I'll make a point to ride Phase I, but I'm a rail buff.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The first TGV line in France was Paris to Lyon. Biggest city to second biggest city. Most transit-oriented city to second most transit oriented city. TGV is the global HSR gold standard.

I would've assumed the HSR gold standard would be Japan's shinkansen.

Incidentally, that first leg was Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka.

[tech12]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Hostile as in unlikely to provide ridership.

The CV has some of the lowest transit ridership and highest vehicle ownership in the U.S., which is saying something. It's extremely sprawly, with extremely weak urban cores. Very little walkability, bikeability, or transit orientation. Very little downtown-to-downtown modal demand. So all of the necessary ingredients for HSR are missing.

The portion of the Central Valley that'll be served by HSR has over 6 million people, and is already served by one of the busiest Amtrak routes in the US (the San Joaquins, which goes from Bakersfield to Oakland, and stops at every Central Valley city in between them). Two of the metros it'll serve have existing commuter rail lines to the Bay Area (ACE in Stockton and Capitol Corridor in Sacramento), and there is bus service throughout the central valley. Sacramento even has a light rail system. So the central valley already has better public transit than a significant portion of the country. You can easily find more sprawled, less densely populated, less walkable cities in America, that have worse transit, and smaller regional populations. The central valley is not a terrible place for HSR, especially considering that the system it's getting will serve not just it, but every major population center in CA.

Also, the goal of the project is not just to improve transit, but to revitalize the central valley cities. The idea is that once the system is complete, the areas around the stations in Fresno, Bakersfield, Merced, etc, will see lots of development.

[TWAK]

Plus the CV is like the only place to build it lol and it's only so wide.
Think of the cost of having HSR along the coast....

[tech12]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Plus the CV is like the only place to build it lol and it's only so wide.
Think of the cost of having HSR along the coast....

Not to mention that the Central Coast only has like 20% of the population of the San Joaquin valley/Sacramento area.

But yeah, I think some people forget that the coast ranges are a thing lol