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  #5761  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 6:53 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
The best protection against that kind of "catastrophe" would be a third crossing, and that would have the benefit of actually expediting traffic for the 9999 out of 10000 times that one of the bridges *doesn't* suffer a ship strike.
Since a 3rd Crossing on the DT area is unlikely, could one across to the North Shore towards Gate Park be viable instead- diverting traffic from Hwy 7 to Hwy 1?
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  #5762  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
The best protection against that kind of "catastrophe" would be a third crossing, and that would have the benefit of actually expediting traffic for the 9999 out of 10000 times that one of the bridges *doesn't* suffer a ship strike.
The best protection against that kind of "catastrophe" would be improving land use so that people aren't required to cross the bridges in the first place.
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  #5763  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Since a 3rd Crossing on the DT area is unlikely, could one across to the North Shore towards Gate Park be viable instead- diverting traffic from Hwy 7 to Hwy 1?
Some ideas have been considered in the past - I can't recall what was serious versus purely speculative - but there are issues with adding traffic through that area. Much like with a third crossing between Vancouver and the North Shore, any new bridge/tunnel would be dropping freeway-level traffic into what is (at best) arterial roads through established residential neighbourhoods.
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  #5764  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 6:07 PM
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If I recall correctly, years and years and years ago Mt. Seymour Parkway and David Ave in the Tri Cities were designed to connect with a bridge over Burrard Inlet. Take a look at the RoW for David Ave and the bridge over Scott Creek and it's immediately obvious they were originally intended to be for a matching 4 lane parkway.

That's almost certainly politically impossible now, given the populations that live on both sides of where the bridge crossing would have been (Deep Cove and Belcarra, possibly the NIMBYest parts of the Lower Mainland). We're more likely to see rapid transit crossings at the First Narrows, Second Narrows, and between Lonsdale and Waterfront before a road bridge would ever be allowed across the "Third Narrows".

Ultimately that's probably the better solution for the North Shore anyway.
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  #5765  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
If I recall correctly, years and years and years ago Mt. Seymour Parkway and David Ave in the Tri Cities were designed to connect with a bridge over Burrard Inlet. Take a look at the RoW for David Ave and the bridge over Scott Creek and it's immediately obvious they were originally intended to be for a matching 4 lane parkway.

That's almost certainly politically impossible now, given the populations that live on both sides of where the bridge crossing would have been (Deep Cove and Belcarra, possibly the NIMBYest parts of the Lower Mainland). We're more likely to see rapid transit crossings at the First Narrows, Second Narrows, and between Lonsdale and Waterfront before a road bridge would ever be allowed across the "Third Narrows".

Ultimately that's probably the better solution for the North Shore anyway.
Maybe there was something earlier than the 1990s but it seems like it was part of the Squamish Connector plan up Indian Arm. But in the near term it seems like they are planning that road to support future development in Ioco and get traffic off of Ioco Road.

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...Lands-Connector-Route-Display-Boards.pdf

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...t-Ioco-Lands-Connector-Options-Study.pdf

Port Moody removed the David Avenue ROW through a park in 2020

https://www.tricitynews.com/local-news/anmore-mayor-slams-port-moodys-david-avenue-decision-3115894
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  #5766  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
Maybe there was something earlier than the 1990s but it seems like it was part of the Squamish Connector plan up Indian Arm. But in the near term it seems like they are planning that road to support future development in Ioco and get traffic off of Ioco Road.

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...Lands-Connector-Route-Display-Boards.pdf

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...t-Ioco-Lands-Connector-Options-Study.pdf

Port Moody removed the David Avenue ROW through a park in 2020

https://www.tricitynews.com/local-news/anmore-mayor-slams-port-moodys-david-avenue-decision-3115894
Yes I think that plan was scrapped decades ago. I wasn't aware the continuation RoW was gone now though. The width of the existing David Ave RoW is still very substantial.
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  #5767  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:43 PM
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Even if built, how many people are trying to get from the Tri-Cities and Maple Ridge to the North Shore... or was this another harebrained scheme to get Valley/Sea-to-Sky traffic off the IWMB? Probably best that it didn't go ahead, either way.
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  #5768  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even if built, how many people are trying to get from the Tri-Cities and Maple Ridge to the North Shore... or was this another harebrained scheme to get Valley/Sea-to-Sky traffic off the IWMB? Probably best that it didn't go ahead, either way.
I think the plan far predated traffic concerns on the North Shore, it was just an idea from an age long ago where building more vehicle infrastructure was always considered better. Neither Mount Seymour Parkway nor David Ave really make much sense in a vacuum nowadays either.
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  #5769  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even if built, how many people are trying to get from the Tri-Cities and Maple Ridge to the North Shore... or was this another harebrained scheme to get Valley/Sea-to-Sky traffic off the IWMB? Probably best that it didn't go ahead, either way.
I would guess that the perceived value would be for traffic going from the north side of the Fraser to the ferries, Whistler and beyond. There's always ideas that make sense if you have a blank slate for redesigning the Lower Mainland but which fail in context of how the region has actually developed. Back when the Sea-to-Sky upgrades were under discussion, some potential routes (IIRC) included highway construction up Indian Arm (not sure about the access for that one), the Seymour River valley (access up Lillooet Road), and the Capilano River watershed (with a highway across the upper levels of the District, around the height of the Powerline/Baden Powell trails). None of those were seriously considered in the end due to extreme technical and environmental challenges.

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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
....Neither Mount Seymour Parkway nor David Ave really make much sense in a vacuum nowadays either.
Part of the rationale for the David Avenue right-of-way previously reserved in Bert Flinn Park was to extend it to service future developments in Ioco, given the low-capacity roads that currently exist.
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  #5770  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:09 PM
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  #5771  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
I think the plan far predated traffic concerns on the North Shore, it was just an idea from an age long ago where building more vehicle infrastructure was always considered better. Neither Mount Seymour Parkway nor David Ave really make much sense in a vacuum nowadays either.
Seems like it was mostly rail focused with links to the North Van waterfront for freight

Quote:
Beginning in the early part of the 20th
-century, there have been a number of proposals over the
past 110+ years for bridges, dams and causeways across Indian Arm to North Vancouver. None
of those proposals ever materialized, although some came close to being realized, and any of
the proposed crossings would have resulted in significant impacts to the communities on both
sides of Indian Arm.
http://www.ralphdrew.ca/articles/Indian_Arm_Crossings_That_Might_Have_Been.pdf
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  #5772  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
Seems like it was mostly rail focused with links to the North Van waterfront for freight

http://www.ralphdrew.ca/articles/Indian_Arm_Crossings_That_Might_Have_Been.pdf
Yeah it's possible the story I know has been distorted over the years. I am seeing a lot of highway proposals in your link though, especially this one:

Quote:
North Shore Highway
In October 1954, plans were unveiled for construction of a new highway across the North Shore
to link Squamish with Coquitlam: (18)
“The proposal calls for a high-level span across Indian Arm in the vicinity of Deep Cove.”
– Vancouver Sun, 16 October 1954.
Wish I had access to the full story to know what their exact plans were.

I've never heard of the dam and causeway proposal though and it looks like it got pretty fleshed out. Now that's a proposal that would have heads rolling nowadays!
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  #5773  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:26 PM
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There was even a weird canal proposal:

http://ralphdrew.ca/articles/The_Second_Narrows_Ship_Canal_Proposal.pdf

Here's an article specifically on the dam. And a canal from Pitt River to Burrard Inlet:

http://ralphdrew.ca/articles/The_Second_Narrows_Dam_Proposal.pdf

You can read the article if you sign up for a free trial on newspapers.com

https://www.newspapers.com/search/?query=%22Span%20Urged%22%20%22north%20shore%22
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  #5774  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:45 PM
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Wow, they thought "big" back then.
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  #5775  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
If I recall correctly, years and years and years ago Mt. Seymour Parkway and David Ave in the Tri Cities were designed to connect with a bridge over Burrard Inlet. Take a look at the RoW for David Ave and the bridge over Scott Creek and it's immediately obvious they were originally intended to be for a matching 4 lane parkway.

That's almost certainly politically impossible now, given the populations that live on both sides of where the bridge crossing would have been (Deep Cove and Belcarra, possibly the NIMBYest parts of the Lower Mainland). We're more likely to see rapid transit crossings at the First Narrows, Second Narrows, and between Lonsdale and Waterfront before a road bridge would ever be allowed across the "Third Narrows".

Ultimately that's probably the better solution for the North Shore anyway.
Do you know where you heard that for a road bridge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
Maybe there was something earlier than the 1990s but it seems like it was part of the Squamish Connector plan up Indian Arm. But in the near term it seems like they are planning that road to support future development in Ioco and get traffic off of Ioco Road.

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...Lands-Connector-Route-Display-Boards.pdf

https://www.portmoody.ca/en/city-hall/re...t-Ioco-Lands-Connector-Options-Study.pdf

Port Moody removed the David Avenue ROW through a park in 2020

https://www.tricitynews.com/local-news/anmore-mayor-slams-port-moodys-david-avenue-decision-3115894
Do you have a source for the Squamish Connector up Indian Arm? That would be a nightmare to build. Most of the proposals for a non-99 Squamish Connector involved plowing through one of the Watersheds.

I think the 'removal' of the ROW is more symbolic than anything.
David Ave is pretty much the only option if you want any chance of any development up there due to the lack of road capacity.

The ROW will most likely come back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Even if built, how many people are trying to get from the Tri-Cities and Maple Ridge to the North Shore... or was this another harebrained scheme to get Valley/Sea-to-Sky traffic off the IWMB? Probably best that it didn't go ahead, either way.
Combined with the slowly-built Hwy 7/Golden Ears Bypass connector, it's kind of a '2nd ring road' for Vancouver (the first ring road being Hwy 1.)

[IMG][/IMG]
Maybe there's enough traffic?
If Hwy 7 gets full upgrading to expressway standards, you could also take some traffic from Langley and Surrey too.

Also, you could make a connector from Hwy 1 across the slopes of Burnaby Mountain to provide a faster connection.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Yeah it's possible the story I know has been distorted over the years. I am seeing a lot of highway proposals in your link though, especially this one:



Wish I had access to the full story to know what their exact plans were.

I've never heard of the dam and causeway proposal though and it looks like it got pretty fleshed out. Now that's a proposal that would have heads rolling nowadays!
There was some possibility you could get electricity off the dam, but I doubt the current is strong enough to make it worthwhile.

For fresh water would make sense though. We don't need that much though- unless you wanted to get rid of all the other watersheds because you wanted to develop the land (probably not).

Depth is also an issue. (in feet)
https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@11&key=ys%7BkHr%7DfmV
Not impossible, but costly.

I always thought maybe a floating bridge would work best here- like on Lake Washington. They are planning LRT across the new bridge.





Most proposals are for rail for good reason, though.

Building a spur from the CP Burrard railway would narrow the already narrow 2nd Narrows, hindering navigation.

The current connection across the 2nd Narrows is a single-track railway that is now unlikely to be expanded due to passing though Brentwood (as well as requiring a long tunnel across increasingly dense suburbs.)

The rail idea has promise still, if only to provide an alternative to the 2nd Narrows railway crossing.

There's tons of land in Ioco around the former refinery and power plant that could be turned into industrial facilities (poor road access is a problem, though.)


Building a railway across Indian Arm to Gates Park, continuing onto the port facilities on 2nd Narrows would massively increase the amount of possible port lands to include those areas (Burrard Inlet is still deep enough for most ships up to Ioco) as well as solve the rail congestion problem across the 2nd Narrows.
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  #5776  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 10:27 PM
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For 3,250 people (even counting round trips for each), a two-lane bridge would've been enough... so, not enough demand to justify all that roadwork.

As for the rail bottleneck, it's really only a problem for passenger trains; evidently, freight trains are doing just fine, otherwise CP/CN/etc would've expanded it a long time ago.
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  #5777  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Do you have a source for the Squamish Connector up Indian Arm? That would be a nightmare to build. Most of the proposals for a non-99 Squamish Connector involved plowing through one of the Watersheds.
There's some ministry report but here's a graphic.



http://bc.transportaction.ca/wp-content/uploads/learning/background/history/squamish_highway.html

Some UBC geography students did some report about it back during the Olympics/Sea-to-Sky highway upgrades.

Quote:
One potential area that has already been discussed is Indian Arm. It is a proposed three-lane route of about 67 kilometers that would start from Barnet Highway through Anmore, Bunsen Lake and along the east side of Indian Arm, following the Indian River and the Stawamus River to Highway 99, just south of Squamish. With the watershed being the main concern of this plan, one could build sections of the highway along the existing BC Hydro power lines right of way to avoid any potential threat of cutting through the watershed. There is another problem that exists in this area that relates to a similar problem on the Sea-to-Sky Highway, and that is to do with avalanche risks. The Indian Arm route would see sections of the highway being built on very steep slopes, and therefore, would not exactly be our plan to recommend. It is also displaced further out from Downtown Vancouver and from Squamish, and would therefore be a larger building project and a longer route. Another reason that this plan would not fly is because there is crown land and a provincial park in the way of the proposed highway. The cost of the highway is also too much, as it is estimated at about $3.9 billion (Vancouver Sun and Province).
https://ibis.geog.ubc.ca/courses/klink/class02/yhgma/
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  #5778  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
For 3,250 people (even counting round trips for each), a two-lane bridge would've been enough... so, not enough demand to justify all that roadwork.

As for the rail bottleneck, it's really only a problem for passenger trains; evidently, freight trains are doing just fine, otherwise CP/CN/etc would've expanded it a long time ago.
That graphic is PPHPD- so there's not much growth room (max theoretical of 2 lanes is 3800).
May as well go 4-lanes (at least for the future) to future-proof it.

But yeah, demand is iffy.
Again, the problem are the roadways to the area more than the crossing itself.


https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/couri...ment-dealt-difficult-bridge-hand-3091578
Quote:
“The bridge is definitely a limiting factor for us as an industry. The North Shore corridor is one of the issues all of us on the North Shore have to consider in our expansion plans. We could all expand and build more capacity at our facilities, but if the railway can’t support that volume and provide the service, it’s a big problem for us.”

He noted that some funding through the federal government’s $2 billion National Trade Corridors Fund has been allocated to add tracks and improve access to the rail tunnel that feeds into Burrard Inlet’s south shore and onto the bridge.

“Those two things are going to help increase the capacity of how many trains can go across the bridge, but it is fair to say that at some point we are going to run into a capacity issue coming across the bridge.”
So yes, the Port is aware of the problem.

The issue is the same as it is for the Westminster Bridge.
It should have been done 50 years ago, but we've been twiddling our thumbs because this is BC and doing so would cost a lot of $$$.

Both entrances and exits from the Thornton Tunnel and 2nd Narrows Bridge are also already double-tracked.



There's also the other problem that NS industrial growth is limited by lack of transport capacity- ie. projects that could have happened never happening because 'we need to keep an eye on if this is even feasible with the current infrastructure.'

eg. The Port leased out the Maplewood Flats for conservation for 50 years in the 1990s- a very strange thing to do unless you plan on maybe using them for industry in 50 years. (otherwise, you'd do a 99 or 999 year-lease).
Squamish Nation also has a massive chunk of port land staying empty around Lions Gate.


Same thing with the lack of a rail tunnel underneath Lonsdale.
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  #5779  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2023, 11:35 PM
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Check the link again.
Quote:
  • 2 lane (w/ left turn lanes): 18,300 vehicles per day
  • 4 lane (w/ left turn lanes): 36,800 vehicles per day
  • 6 lane (w/ left turn lanes): 55,300 vehicles per day
So a two-lane bridge could handle pretty much all of the Tri-Cities plus spillover from Maple Ridge and Langley; four lanes is overkill. But nobody's going to spend all that time and resources on just two lanes.

Well, the North Shore is free to pay for its own track; so far, CN (who own the bridge) are satisfied with the amount of capacity they have now, and the province evidently has other ideas.
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  #5780  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2023, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Check the link again.
If we're going to cite traffic engineers, in order to be consistent we have to acknowledge that building infrastructure like that should in principle significantly induce demand.

Now I'm no expert, but I would have to imagine a third crossing across the "Third Narrows" would nearly instantly significantly increase traffic between the Tri-Cities and the North Shore. At the very least, it certainly wouldn't remain at 3,250.

Maybe all this talk is better suited to the Transit Fantasies thread, though.
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