HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #101  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 10:33 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: WQW / PMR
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
It's not but that's not what's happening. There are loads of compelling reasons why Canada wants high levels of immigration and NONE of them are about growth for growth's sake.
The Trudeau government wants unsustainably high immigration to support the housing bubble and boast up rental prices for landlords. I don't see how that's not pushing growth for growth's sake.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #102  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:01 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
The Trudeau government wants unsustainably high immigration to support the housing bubble and boast up rental prices for landlords. I don't see how that's not pushing growth for growth's sake.
it's about sustaining the safety net for Canada's aging population. immigrants are the one who will be paying for the healthcare of the baby boomers so they don't die in the streets.
it has nothing to do with real estate or growth for growth's sake.

Demographic is destiny and this has been predicted by economist for a long time now that Canada will have to dramatically increase immigration to stave off a safety net collapse.
we are still not at the levels yet needed to stop this collapse however and immigration will have to be increased more still.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #103  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:02 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: WQW / PMR
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
it's about sustaining the safety net because of Canada aging population. it has nothing to do with real estate.
What safety net is being sustained if the current healthcare system doesn't even have the capacity to service the new immigrants?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #104  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:07 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
What safety net is being sustained if the current healthcare system doesn't even have the capacity to service the new immigrants?
the billions in taxes from all the new immigrants are paying for the exploding healthcare cost of the boomer who are starting to die and so are sucking our system dry.
but it's not just healthcare, but old age security as well. the only way these systems work is by having several times more workers than people drawing out of the system.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #105  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:10 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: WQW / PMR
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Yep, that's some impressive growth. Now let's compare the GDP growth to the population growth in the same time period. It's no secret that Canada has been using immigration to fuel economic growth instead of productivity, but the consequence of that is that GDP per capita has been stagnant or declining for several years. Add in the housing crisis and increasingly strained public services & infrastructure, and all we really have to show for it is a worsening quality of life.

On the bright side, at least Americans won't be able to tell us that California has a bigger population than Canada anymore!
Agreed it's literally a population growth ponzi scheme at this point. It's malicious and predatory for the government to jack up immigration targets, without a plan to scale up housing and healthcare to accommodate these newcomers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #106  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:10 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Agreed it's literally a population growth ponzi scheme at this point. It's malicious and predatory for the government to jack up immigration targets, without a plan to scale up housing and healthcare to accommodate these newcomers.
Housing is a provincial responsibility and they all have the power to increase housing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #107  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2023, 11:13 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: WQW / PMR
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Housing is a provincial responsibility and they all have the power to increase housing.
I don't see how passing the buck by blaming provinces benefits Canadians. Shouldn't national immigration policies be fine-tuned to take into account provincial housing policies? The trades have already indicated they are maxed out and can't keep ramping up housing start numbers. But for some reason Trudeau just turns a blind eye to the issues on the ground.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #108  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 1:28 AM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
it's about sustaining the safety net for Canada's aging population. immigrants are the one who will be paying for the healthcare of the baby boomers so they don't die in the streets.
Complete and utter nonsense.

CPP is fully funded.

People are retiring later, and if we bumped the retirement age to 70, as we should, as the Scandinavian countries have, the additional tax haul and reduced payout would be a windfall.

Canada is not that old a nation and much older countries have not experienced the scenario you describe (see Japan), even with very little immigration.

There's nothing wrong with immigration per se; there is something wrong with people such as yourself expressing utterly misinformed views about why its needed, or whether the current level is appropriate for Canada (its not)

Quote:
it has nothing to do with real estate or growth for growth's sake.
No, it has to do with sustaining artificially high real estate prices and an economy overly reliant on same, while seeing wages and productivity stagnate, due to an inordinate supply of cheap labour; driven by explosive numbers for foreign students being mooched for high tuition for low value diplomas and then 'allowed' to work full-time while enrolled in order to cover those costs. Its also about a huge surge in Temporary Foreign Workers, many doing fast food and entry-level retail jobs which would otherwise be automated or pay a more decent income but for that exercise.

Those latter programs are exploitive of the populations we bring in, and serve neither Canada nor those people well.
__________________
An environmentally conscientious, libertarian inclined, fiscally conservative, socialist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #109  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 3:27 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Complete and utter nonsense.

CPP is fully funded.

People are retiring later, and if we bumped the retirement age to 70, as we should, as the Scandinavian countries have, the additional tax haul and reduced payout would be a windfall.

Canada is not that old a nation and much older countries have not experienced the scenario you describe (see Japan), even with very little immigration.

There's nothing wrong with immigration per se; there is something wrong with people such as yourself expressing utterly misinformed views about why its needed, or whether the current level is appropriate for Canada (its not)



No, it has to do with sustaining artificially high real estate prices and an economy overly reliant on same, while seeing wages and productivity stagnate, due to an inordinate supply of cheap labour; driven by explosive numbers for foreign students being mooched for high tuition for low value diplomas and then 'allowed' to work full-time while enrolled in order to cover those costs. Its also about a huge surge in Temporary Foreign Workers, many doing fast food and entry-level retail jobs which would otherwise be automated or pay a more decent income but for that exercise.

Those latter programs are exploitive of the populations we bring in, and serve neither Canada nor those people well.
Explain the following to me then if immigration and not interest rates is what is responsible for house prices.

1) why house prices fell by 15% in the same year 1 million more people moved to Canada

2) why house prices shot up to the highest level ever in the years (2020,2021) we saw the fewest immigrants in over 2 decade?

3) finally explain to me why wages increased by 5% , the highest rate in a generation in 2022, in the same year as we received 1 million more people.

Last edited by Nite; Mar 28, 2023 at 3:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #110  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 4:13 AM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miami/somewhere in paradise
Posts: 1,705
What Quebec really needs to do is to see if it can gain immigrants from Latin America (hispanophones & lusophones from Brazil) to migrate to Quebec legally & either teach them French either in their home countries and allow them to come or if they decide to migrate legally to Quebec via Montreal and are unable to either speak nor comprehend French, then those Latin American immigrants need to be taught French at their own reconnaissance.

Other than the Francophone countries across the globe (Haiti, Algeria, Morocco, Belgium, Switzerland, etc.), I believe that if Quebec can capitalize on using hispanophones & lusophones from the Caribbean & Latin America as a new source of immigration and teaching them Quebec French.

Latin America was first named that by Napoleon of all people, not by Portuguese or Spanish explorers, and if I were Legault, rather than continually relying on Francophone immigrants just to support growth in Quebec, the Quebec governments needs to convince Latinos and Latin American immigrants to come to Quebec legally, including asylum seekers, as opposed to shipping them to other provinces. If that's what Legault wants to do, that's his prerogative, but it's not going to look good for Quebec if he continually shifts immigrants and migrants to other provinces (namely Ontario) and if it continues, then Montreal will be less cosmopolitan than it was in the past.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #111  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 4:21 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 44,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Explain the following to me then if immigration and not interest rates is what is responsible for house prices.

1) why house prices fell by 15% in the same year 1 million more people moved to Canada

2) why house prices shot up to the highest level ever in the years (2020,2021) we saw the fewest immigrants in over 2 decade?

3) finally explain to me why wages increased by 5% , the highest rate in a generation in 2022, in the same year as we received 1 million more people.
Northern Light is fully correct. Prices in the most overheated markets going down a bit while interest rates triple and quadruple is housing continuing to get even more unaffordable, and greatly so.

When interest rates go from ~2% to ~7%, real estate normally totally craters; however with a Ponzi Scheme of immigration, you can keep it juiced up even as the rates triple/quadruple. This is exactly what we’re observing.

Rents are higher than ever, and still climbing.
Average mortgage payment is higher than ever, and still climbing.
Percentage of income that renters burn on rent is higher than ever, and still climbing.
Percentage of income that mortgage owners burn on monthly payments is higher than ever, and still climbing.

This Ponzi Scheme is only sustained by a substantial flow of fresh new suckers every year.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #112  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 4:30 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Northern Light is fully correct. Prices in the most overheated markets going down a bit while interest rates triple and quadruple is housing continuing to get even more unaffordable, and greatly so.

When interest rates go from ~2% to ~7%, real estate normally totally craters; however with a Ponzi Scheme of immigration, you can keep it juiced up even as the rates triple/quadruple. This is exactly what we’re observing.

Rents are higher than ever, and still climbing.
Average mortgage payment is higher than ever, and still climbing.
Percentage of income that renters burn on rent is higher than ever, and still climbing.
Percentage of income that mortgage owners burn on monthly payments is higher than ever, and still climbing.

This Ponzi Scheme is only sustained by a substantial flow of fresh new suckers every year.
so maybe it's interest that control house prices then and not immigration which only increases demand by 1.5% year.
During the last 3 years prices have gone the opposite direct to the amount of immigrations Canada gets (ie low immigration number and rising house prices and high immigration and falling house prices)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #113  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 4:34 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
What Quebec really needs to do is to see if it can gain immigrants from Latin America (hispanophones & lusophones from Brazil) to migrate to Quebec legally & either teach them French either in their home countries and allow them to come or if they decide to migrate legally to Quebec via Montreal and are unable to either speak nor comprehend French, then those Latin American immigrants need to be taught French at their own reconnaissance.

Other than the Francophone countries across the globe (Haiti, Algeria, Morocco, Belgium, Switzerland, etc.), I believe that if Quebec can capitalize on using hispanophones & lusophones from the Caribbean & Latin America as a new source of immigration and teaching them Quebec French.

Latin America was first named that by Napoleon of all people, not by Portuguese or Spanish explorers, and if I were Legault, rather than continually relying on Francophone immigrants just to support growth in Quebec, the Quebec governments needs to convince Latinos and Latin American immigrants to come to Quebec legally, including asylum seekers, as opposed to shipping them to other provinces. If that's what Legault wants to do, that's his prerogative, but it's not going to look good for Quebec if he continually shifts immigrants and migrants to other provinces (namely Ontario) and if it continues, then Montreal will be less cosmopolitan than it was in the past.
Quebec has no problem finding enough francophones to immigrate, they could easily open up the immigration levels to 100,000 francophone only immigrants a year.
The issue is more about trying to maintain there ethnocultural state which is not just about language.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #114  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 1:00 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
No, it has to do with sustaining artificially high real estate prices and an economy overly reliant on same, while seeing wages and productivity stagnate, due to an inordinate supply of cheap labour; driven by explosive numbers for foreign students being mooched for high tuition for low value diplomas and then 'allowed' to work full-time while enrolled in order to cover those costs.
I think it's not just economic. It's also most likely ideological. Justin Trudeau is probably a "no-border" sort of guy, everybody has the right to live in Canada. Also, in Anglophone Canada, there are probably quite a few politicians who are not displeased to see the share of the annoying Québec in the national population decline, as they imagine it will make Québec less of a problem if it becomes as insignificant as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia.

Last but not least (and these are probably the most ludicrous ones), there are also those politicians who dream of making Canada a "superpower" by having 100 million people or more. Absurd, because even a Canada of 100 million people wouldn't count for much next to the US.
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #115  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 1:30 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Gros Méchant Loup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 72,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Quebec has no problem finding enough francophones to immigrate, they could easily open up the immigration levels to 100,000 francophone only immigrants a year.
The issue is more about trying to maintain there ethnocultural state which is not just about language.
It's not really about maintaining an "ethnocultural state" as this has never existed in Quebec.

And if the goal were to build an ethnostate, Quebec would be opposed to immigration outright, would it not?

As it stands now what Quebec wants is more control over its immigration, ie all of it ideally.

If it were to do that then it could make knowledge of French more of a priority in addition to other factors.

The current set-up sees Quebec choose about half the people who come here and the other half comes via the various processes of the Canadian federal government.

In the case of the federal government they give equal point for people who know either French or English, and in some cases let in people who speak no French or English at all.

One can assume that this is not what Quebec would do if it had total control of immigration, so the short answer is that sharing immigration with the feds is almost certainly a contributing factor to the anglicization of Quebec.
__________________
Loin des yeux, loin du coeur.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #116  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 1:32 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Gros Méchant Loup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 72,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I think it's not just economic. It's also most likely ideological. Justin Trudeau is probably a "no-border" sort of guy, everybody has the right to live in Canada. Also, in Anglophone Canada, there are probably quite a few politicians who are not displeased to see the share of the annoying Québec in the national population decline, as they imagine it will make Québec less of a problem if it becomes as insignificant as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia.

Last but not least (and these are probably the most ludicrous ones), there are also those politicians who dream of making Canada a "superpower" by having 100 million people or more. Absurd, because even a Canada of 100 million people wouldn't count for much next to the US.
In all honesty though Quebec will never become as politically insignificant as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia.
__________________
Loin des yeux, loin du coeur.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #117  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 1:49 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
so maybe it's interest that control house prices then and not immigration which only increases demand by 1.5% year.
During the last 3 years prices have gone the opposite direct to the amount of immigrations Canada gets (ie low immigration number and rising house prices and high immigration and falling house prices)
Lio is on the money here.

***

So, as Lio (whose into the real estate market as an investor) knows; there ar multiple factors at play in pricing of housing, as with any good or service.

That said the majority can broadly be explained at the high level by 'supply' and 'demand'. I literally don't have the time to detail how those play out in every respect; but I will try to hit the highlights.

1) Demand is rising, both due to immigration (inclusive of foreign students and TFWs); as well as shrinking household size (fewer people in each home) and financialization of real estate which includes factors such as people buying condos, though sometimes SFH and keeping them off the rental market as a passive holding, as well as flipping through assignment sales, various other measures that serve to constrain supply and inflate price.

In respect of demand growth your grasp of the scale of that growth and its impact is under-sized.

Example one, household size. Average household size in Canada is falling 0.1 every 4 years or so. What's the impact? Watch.
15.3M households divided by average family size. Requirement 9M housing units (rental and ownership) + vacancies/second homes/vacation rentals and cottages.
Drop household size to 0.1 and you need 9,562,000 house units ++
Think about that, you have demand growth over 140,000 units per year based on shrinking household size alone.

Now lets talk population growth. You seem to think growth is 1.5% a year......tis not so. Canada added over 1M to its population last year, that's over 2.7% growth. Roughly, 450,000 'immigrants', + TFWs + Foreign Students + Refugees Asylum seekers + Natural growth. Those 1,050,000 people all need places to live. Lets divide their numbers by a larger than typical Canadian household size (though not universally true as foreign students and many TFWs are singles), conservatively, you need 525,000 additional housing units for just one year.

Adding that to our household demand flow, and you need well over 650,000 housing units just to maintain equilibrium
When you look at the current trend in housing starts in Canada, you see ~ 250,000 per year.

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/professio...-housing-starts-construction-data-tables

In other words, nation-wide, we are building fewer units that new demand each and every year. We have no practical way to even hold balance in the market, because the industry simply can't turn out units much faster than it is.
I know people in the industry and there are worker, equipment and supply shortages. Developers have pipelines, and projects are already delayed not for lack of buyers, but the resources to build.

***

Meanwhile, we run into another problem.....the influx of labour restrains wage growth. But the high demand for housing drives up the price.

Thus reducing relative affordability.

If median wage growth were keeping up with housing, we wouldn't have a crisis, but its not. Why is the local Tim Horton's going to pay its cashier $23 per hour when they can import a TFW who will work for $15?
That is exploitive to the TFW by the way or the foreign student we're mooching for 25k for a community college diploma they'll likely never get any use out of..while working the night shift at Tim's through their entire studying years.
Lose-lose. Developers and investors are doing well; but to the detriment of the economy as a whole. We're over-weight real estate and under weight innovation, manufacturing and other value-add.
__________________
An environmentally conscientious, libertarian inclined, fiscally conservative, socialist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #118  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 2:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 12,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sneaking in to Canada shouldn't be too hard. It's sneaking back into the US that will be tricky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Neither is tricky, if you know what you're doing. (Or if you have my help )

8 hours away? I thought you were in Cincinnati.

And yeah, before 9/11 the border was a breeze to cross; I know, I grew up not far from it. (That's one of the arguments in favor of Dubya having had more of a lasting impact than Trump, but that's a conversation for the CE toilet/subforum.)
Before the Boblo Island amusement park closed you could bypass US/Canadian border control by going through there.

You can also probably still take a boat or jet ski across the Detroit River or Lake St. Clair without being noticed. Whenever I'm along the river in Detroit during the summer I see people with jet skis weaving back and forth from the Detroit side to the Windsor side and nobody seems to care.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #119  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 2:46 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
SUSPENDED
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
In all honesty though Quebec will never become as politically insignificant as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia.
I wouldn't be so sure. On current trends, Québec is on course to fall to 10% of Canada's population sooner or later. What sort of weight Québec will have in Canada when it's only 10% of Canada's population?
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #120  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2023, 3:01 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I wouldn't be so sure. On current trends, Québec is on course to fall to 10% of Canada's population sooner or later. What sort of weight Québec will have in Canada when it's only 10% of Canada's population?
Umm, if Quebec's population completely stagnated, Canada would have to grow to 84.5M people for Quebec to fall to 10% of the population. While not impossible to imagine, its certainly an unlikely scenario.

The projections for population by the gov't of Quebec have a relatively slow growth trend, but still show well over 10M in population by 2066.



In that scenario, Canada would have be about 105M in 2066 for Quebec to fall to 10%.

I don't think its likely Canada will reach 105M by 2066; I also think Quebec will likely grow faster than current projected.
__________________
An environmentally conscientious, libertarian inclined, fiscally conservative, socialist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:52 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.