Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

A proposed eSports arena and hotel

Bob Hunter, who has had his hand involved in planning and managing many sports facilities in Canada over the last 40 years, was on the Toronto Legends Podcast this week talking about this esports venue in Toronto. They are finalizing the plans and expect to have shovels in the ground this September. Should be about 7000 seats.

https://www.podpage.com/toronto-legends/bob-hunter/

[craner]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I went into a bit of a NHL Arena rabbit hole a couple weeks ago. I found three distinct periods of new arena construction. These lists are incomplete.

1924-1931, the Original Six. Essentially the roaring 20s in an era of NHL expansion, just before the Great Depression.

Montreal Forum (1924)
Madison Square Garden III (1925)
Olympia Stadium (1927)
Boston Garden (1928)
Chicago Stadium (1929)
Maple Leaf Garden (1931)

1961-1979, throwing a wider net here which includes some expansion teams from 67' onwards along with the first new arenas of Original Six teams.

Pittsburgh Civic Centre (1961), pre-dates the Penguins, but inspires their name.
The Spectrum (1967)
The Forum (1967)
Pacific Coliseum (1967)
Madison Square Garden 1V (1968)
Capital Centre (1973), very similar to the Saddledome
Jos Louis Arena (1979)

1996-2001, the modern era.

Honda Center, SAP Center, (1993)
Enterprise Center, United Center (1994)
Rogers Arena, TD Garden (1995)
Amalia Arena, Molson Centre, Corel Centre, Bridgestone Arena, KeyBank Centre, Wells Fargo (1996)
Capital One (1997)
FLA (1998)
Pepsi, Staples, PNC, ACC (1999)
Nationwide, Xcel (2000)
American Airlines (2004).

Since then, a new arena has been built every few years.

Side note as an Ottawa guy, the original Senators built a new arena during that first boom, the Ottawa Auditorium, in 1924. With a capacity of 10k, it was in line with the Forum (9,300) and Maple Leaf Garden (12,400), but smaller than it's American counterparts. In 1931, the team moved to St. Louis, where they played for one year before folding. When St. Louis won an expansion team in 1967, the Blues played at that same arena until 1994 (so an Original Six era arena). 1967 was the year the Ottawa Auditorium was replaced by the Ottawa Civic Centre, which hosted the new NHL Senators from the October 1992 to January 1996.

Great list, and I hate to nitpick but it is Maple Leaf GardenS in Toronto.

[Oilkountry]

Really begs the question how long do you think a modern era arenas life span will be assuming it meets the needs for a team today and well in the future? Ottawa is a bad example because of its location. But lets say rogers arena? Scotiabank arena? And equally as interesting rogers place?

We seen a shift in arena construction in the early 90's and then again in the mid 2000's one can argue arenas have peaked when you seen rogers place and climate pledge arena, ide say they have learned from past mistakes in terms of leaving room for expansion, renovation ect. I would imagine you wont be hearing about a new arena in those markets for 100+ years or until the concrete and steel start eroding. But what about Toronto, Montreal, Tampa bay, buffalo ect?

How much money would MLSE or any market have to be leaving on the table every season for them to pull the trigger? Will it even be viable in 2050 to build an arena they essentially double in cost every 15 years. Wont be long before its a price tag of 1.5 billion+ to build a modest arena

Or by the time the 90s era replacement time rolls around will VR take over? Pay $500 for a season pass and have the in arena experience? I can see that being the future. Pick any seat in the house at anytime from the comfort of your couch.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by craner

Great list, and I hate to nitpick but it is Maple Leaf GardenS in Toronto.

Had no idea. Do we know why Boston and New York went with singular "Garden" but Toronto decided to go plural "Gardens"?

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Really begs the question how long do you think a modern era arenas life span will be assuming it meets the needs for a team today and well in the future? Ottawa is a bad example because of its location. But lets say rogers arena? Scotiabank arena? And equally as interesting rogers place?

We seen a shift in arena construction in the early 90's and then again in the mid 2000's one can argue arenas have peaked when you seen rogers place and climate pledge arena, ide say they have learned from past mistakes in terms of leaving room for expansion, renovation ect. I would imagine you wont be hearing about a new arena in those markets for 100+ years or until the concrete and steel start eroding. But what about Toronto, Montreal, Tampa bay, buffalo ect?

How much money would MLSE or any market have to be leaving on the table every season for them to pull the trigger? Will it even be viable in 2050 to build an arena they essentially double in cost every 15 years. Wont be long before its a price tag of 1.5 billion+ to build a modest arena

Or by the time the 90s era replacement time rolls around will VR take over? Pay $500 for a season pass and have the in arena experience? I can see that being the future. Pick any seat in the house at anytime from the comfort of your couch.

That's the thing, right? In the 20s and 30s, they probably thought arena design peaked. And then again in the 60s and 70s. There's always something new.

The 90s arenas do seem large enough to make changes and improvements over time. We've seen it in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa, and I'm sure just about everywhere else, but some things can't be fixed.

I really hope VR from the couch never replaces the in game experience, but society does seem to be shifting towards that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, wow. Shades of the Hagia Sophia!



Interestingly, it looks like those towers got clipped somewhere along the way.

I was thinking the exact same thing. And based on the era, it's not impossible that the architects were so inspired in some way.

[J.OT13]

Most arenas of that era were very nice and elegant, often blended well into the cityscape, but this one was a landmark.

[Djeffery]

I'm sure there is the thought percolating around the minds of some at MLSE that Scotiabank isn't the arena they really want, given how small the building is and that it was an original Raptors design that could only be changed so much for hockey given the stage of construction it was at when the Leafs bought it. That said, how do they beat the location they are in? How much more money can they generate in a new building to justify the costs of it? How many more suites could they sell? How many more actual seats could they sell? Climate Pledge Arena is about 50% larger of an actual building than Scotiabank, what could MLSE do with that extra space?

The renovations at the Rogers Centre are supposed to be a temporary bandaid for the Blue Jays to figure out what they are doing longer term. If they leave that site, I could see MLSE pouncing and building where the dome is.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I'm sure there is the thought percolating around the minds of some at MLSE that Scotiabank isn't the arena they really want, given how small the building is and that it was an original Raptors design that could only be changed so much for hockey given the stage of construction it was at when the Leafs bought it. That said, how do they beat the location they are in? How much more money can they generate in a new building to justify the costs of it? How many more suites could they sell? How many more actual seats could they sell? Climate Pledge Arena is about 50% larger of an actual building than Scotiabank, what could MLSE do with that extra space?

The renovations at the Rogers Centre are supposed to be a temporary bandaid for the Blue Jays to figure out what they are doing longer term. If they leave that site, I could see MLSE pouncing and building where the dome is.

If the GTHA never gets a second team, MLSE could push the envelop by building a 25k seat arena. We see a trend downwards in seat capacity nowadays, but the scarcity of Maple Leafs tickets could bring it upwards in that market.

Skydome would be an option, but Exhibition Place might be better. Have all 4 MLSE teams play in the same area and develop the land around them with easy access to GO and the TTC subway and streetcars (as they do now).

[esquire]

If there's one team in the NHL that could get away with selling out a 25,000 seat arena, it's the Leafs.

[Coldrsx]

Would never happen as you want to keep demand outpacing supply by a significant margin.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Had no idea. Do we know why Boston and New York went with singular "Garden" but Toronto decided to go plural "Gardens"?

Boston's was named after New York - it was originally Boston Madison Square Garden. Toronto originally had Arena Gardens before moving to Maple Leaf Gardens. Portland has the Rose Garden.

What predates them all is the cricket ground Eden Gardens in Kolkata. The naming generally comes from a park they were located in. Supposedly, in Madison Square, there would be flower sales in the outdoor space prior to MSG being built. Similarly, one could say that Maple Leaf Gardens was a reference to a "flower district", and nearby Allan Gardens. The plural likely just comes from there being multiple parks nearby. One could probably argue that it also comes from German influence (biergarten, kindergarten).

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by esquire

If there's one team in the NHL that could get away with selling out a 25,000 seat arena, it's the Leafs.

But the extra supply of roughly 7,000 tickets could wind up bringing the ticket prices down of the current seats - which would negate the additional profit the extra seats bring in. Supply and demand is a tricky thing to manage. Plus, a larger arena could make it feel less intimate and take away from the attractiveness of attending a game.

I think the Leafs are good at their current capacity.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

If there's one team in the NHL that could get away with selling out a 25,000 seat arena, it's the Leafs.

I agree and I think if they had done their own arena from scratch, it would have at least been the largest in the NHL, if not even a few thousand more than second place. Of course, there are the Raptors to consider, and they might suffer from too many seats. Maybe that opens the idea of a second Leafs arena. We always hear talk that Toronto is underserved in the large arena scene. Maybe the Raptors stay at Scotiabank and the Leafs move to a new larger arena. Move the Marlies in with the Raptors, and build the new Leafs arena at the ex beside BMO.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Would never happen as you want to keep demand outpacing supply by a significant margin.

How do we know it still wouldn't? They went up by almost 3000 when they left MLG and the market hasn't shrunk since then. I would guess there is pent up corporate demand for Leafs seats, both suites and club level, in addition to the extra regular seats they could sell..

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I agree and I think if they had done their own arena from scratch, it would have at least been the largest in the NHL, if not even a few thousand more than second place. Of course, there are the Raptors to consider, and they might suffer from too many seats. Maybe that opens the idea of a second Leafs arena. We always hear talk that Toronto is underserved in the large arena scene. Maybe the Raptors stay at Scotiabank and the Leafs move to a new larger arena. Move the Marlies in with the Raptors, and build the new Leafs arena at the ex beside BMO.

It's crazy how busy the ACC is with three sports teams calling it home. That's well over 100 games per year. Is the place ever not hosting an event?

I always thought Toronto needed a second 20k arena, and keeping the ACC for the Raptors and building a new NHL arena might be the way to go eventually.

[Brisket17]

Originally Posted by Berklon

But the extra supply of roughly 7,000 tickets could wind up bringing the ticket prices down of the current seats - which would negate the additional profit the extra seats bring in. Supply and demand is a tricky thing to manage. Plus, a larger arena could make it feel less intimate and take away from the attractiveness of attending a game.

I think the Leafs are good at their current capacity.

Agreed. Recent trends in NHL arenas are going smaller to the 17k mark.

Every Leafs game I go to in the regular season, even on Saturday nights, there are still hundreds of empty seats scattered throughout the arena.

Could this be a mix of unsold seats vs sold but no one showing up? Possibly, but I haven't seen anything recently to suggest the Leafs need a larger capacity at home.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Brisket17

Agreed. Recent trends in NHL arenas are going smaller to the 17k mark.

Every Leafs game I go to in the regular season, even on Saturday nights, there are still hundreds of empty seats scattered throughout the arena.

Could this be a mix of unsold seats vs sold but no one showing up? Possibly, but I haven't seen anything recently to suggest the Leafs need a larger capacity at home.

I would assume season ticket holders not bothering showing up to every game. It's still money in the bank.

[JHikka]

Sports arenas and stadiums are downsizing as they fight with supply/demand issues of crowds at events. Leafs aren't going to be playing in front of 25K or even 20K in the event that they build a new arena. The days of 20K+ buildings are likely over for the foreseeable future. Same with stadiums nearing 100K+

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Would never happen as you want to keep demand outpacing supply by a significant margin.

They could go bigger then 25,000 and sellout no problem, both for the Raptors and the Leafs. Montreal sells out their 21,000+ arena each game, the current largest arena in the league. There is no need for a new NHL arena in Toronto as The Scotiabank Arena is one of the better NHL arenas out there with one of the best public transport connections as well.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Bob Hunter, who has had his hand involved in planning and managing many sports facilities in Canada over the last 40 years, was on the Toronto Legends Podcast this week talking about this esports venue in Toronto. They are finalizing the plans and expect to have shovels in the ground this September. Should be about 7000 seats.

https://www.podpage.com/toronto-legends/bob-hunter/

That was the old design, unless they reverted back. Over on their website https://overactivemedia.com/venue/ this is the design they have up.