The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[GreaterMontréal]

We went from this in 2013, just a vision

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand...-leger-sur-le-nouveau-pont-champlain.php
to this in 2023, new bridge + REM
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cp8nELLPYyd/?hl=fr

[harls]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

We went from this in 2013, just a vision

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand...-leger-sur-le-nouveau-pont-champlain.php
to this in 2023, new bridge + REM
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cp8nELLPYyd/?hl=fr

I am looking forward to the Découverte episode tonight on the REM.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

We went from this in 2013, just a vision

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand...-leger-sur-le-nouveau-pont-champlain.php
to this in 2023, new bridge + REM
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cp8nELLPYyd/?hl=fr

OK, so I need to visit Montréal again...

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I wonder if that would come at the expense of the Greenline in Calgary? I hope to God that you're right feepa. My confidence in her losing has wavered in light of recent polling.

I have a question about the Green Line.......

I know that the downtown section is underground while the remaining routes remain on the street but at the intersection point, are they going to make the Green Line station with an east-west underground in mind? Sooner or later they are going to have to bury the east-west downtown corridor and it would make a lot of sense {and save a ton of money and time} to build a "ghost station" for it.

Sort of similar to what they did when building the Yonge line at Queen for the eventuality of a Queen subway.

[JHikka]

GO Updates:

Massive GO Transit improvements beginning April 8, including:
- Weekend GO Train service on the Kitchener Line between Union and Mt Pleasant
- New GO bus route connecting Waterloo, Guelph, Aldershot, and Hamilton
- Milton line buses permanently redirected to the Lakeshore W Line



https://twitter.com/VanishingUnder/status/1639269066820005900

On the new Waterloo-Hamilton bus:

A new GO bus route is connecting Guelph to Hamilton.

Beginning April 8, Metrolinx has announced a new weekday route will run from Waterloo, to Guelph and down Highway 6 to Hamilton every hour.

In Guelph, the bus will stop at Guelph Central Station, the University of Guelph, and the Gordon Street and Stone Road area.

After making a pit stop in Aberfoyle, the bus will head down and make stops at the Aldershot GO station, Hamilton GO Centre and McMaster University.

The earliest bus leaves Waterloo at 5 a.m. Monday to Friday (except for holidays), connecting through Guelph and arriving at stops in Hamilton before 7:30 a.m.

The late bus leaves Hamilton at 9 p.m.

If you're heading to Waterloo, the route will include stops at Victoria and Frederick Street, as well as the University of Waterloo and Wilfrid Laurier University.


https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-news/n...thPULIkvu6rODpwFglLpRbCd8gdFhIxn-yAbGDTk

[JHikka]

This is from the Ontario budget this past week:


Notable that the Sheppard East extension is still 'proposed'.

City staff in Brampton are currently looking at an extension of the Hurontario Line from Steeles to Brampton GO and considering both at-grade and underground options.

[Truenorth00]

At some point, they'll have to bite the bullet and extend Sheppard East and West. They should just convert Sheppard to LRT. Would make it easier to extend.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

At some point, they'll have to bite the bullet and extend Sheppard East and West. They should just convert Sheppard to LRT. Would make it easier to extend.

Interesting idea. Would the cost savings be significant enough to warrant it, though, considering a new fleet of high floor LRVs and an MSF would be required? Grade level stations would also require high level platforms, making stations more substantial and therefore more expensive than low platform stations, like those on the Finch and Eglinton lines.

The east and west extensions to Sheppard West and Sheppard East amount to about 11.5 km. Assuming $300 million per km of subway ($3.45B) and $100 million per km of LRT (1.15B), you save $2.3B. Once the added costs of converting to LRT are factored in, the net costs might not be all that substantial.

Given the relatively low ridership, I wonder if just going with shorter trains and stations would make more sense from a cost saving standpoint.

Edit: Should also add that converting to LRT would require a catenary system to be installed in the existing section of Line 4, which I'm sure is feasible, but not sure what kind of costs would be associated with that.

[Truenorth00]

Extending with LRT would also let them go past the subway extensions that are pledged. They could take LRT till the Zoo in the East (surface running east of McCowan at least) and till Weston in the West. Subway would be maximum from Sheppard West till McCowan. But even they were going to stick with the subway, I wish they would commit to building those extensions by 2040. Why just plan the east extension only? There's no real contection between the Spadina and Yonge subways north of the 401. And right now, no commitment to build these anytime. But they should plan for these, since every project now under construction on that map will be completed inside of 10 years. They need to plan the next wave of projects.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Interesting idea. Would the cost savings be significant enough to warrant it, though, considering a new fleet of high floor LRVs and an MSF would be required? Grade level stations would also require high level platforms, making stations more substantial and therefore more expensive than low platform stations, like those on the Finch and Eglinton lines.

The east and west extensions to Sheppard West and Sheppard East amount to about 11.5 km. Assuming $300 million per km of subway ($3.45B) and $100 million per km of LRT (1.15B), you save $2.3B. Once the added costs of converting to LRT are factored in, the net costs might not be all that substantial.

Given the relatively low ridership, I wonder if just going with shorter trains and stations would make more sense from a cost saving standpoint.

Edit: Should also add that converting to LRT would require a catenary system to be installed in the existing section of Line 4, which I'm sure is feasible, but not sure what kind of costs would be associated with that.

If they did go the LRT route, it would probably be cheaper and easier to convert the 5 stations on the existing section to low floor rather than making all the new stations high floor since surface LRT tends to have a closer stop spacing and therefore far more stops. For instance, Finch has 18 stops across only 11km making the average distance between stops only 0.65km compared to 1.38km on Sheppard. There may not even be room for high floor stations on some sections of the street, especially if they're going to give it a dedicated ROW (which they should, obviously) since high floor stations need ramps, or stairs.

They could convert the current stations to low floor by raising the track height, and they wouldn't necessarily need to convert it to overhead power. There are examples of electrified lines using 3rd rail in one section and overhead in another. Boston's Blue line come to mind.

That said, I'd rather see the line extended as fully grade separated light metro with trains the size of Canada line's and much of the extensions elevated. Should be underground for the 1.4km stretch west to Earl Bales, then emerge onto an elevated structure above the street. If there are noise concerns, it can be an enclosed structure like on part of the Sapporo subway.

Elevated running would still reduce costs compared to underground but would offer the sort of speed that would be appropriate for a suburban setting. It could be expanded into a real orbital route that would allow people to get across town really quickly. Eglinton will offer a bit of that, but it will be slower since it's meant to provide local service along the route. Plus, it's not really that close (about as far from Sheppard as it is from Queen street). It could eventually go up and join the Finch hydro corridor and offer transfers with the LRT. It could even follow hydro corridors all the way down to Bloor like was once envisioned.


https://www.blogto.com/city/2016/02/what_the_ttc_would_look_like_if_toronto_stuck_to_plans/

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Extending with LRT would also let them go past the subway extensions that are pledged. They could take LRT till the Zoo in the East (surface running east of McCowan at least) and till Weston in the West. Subway would be maximum from Sheppard West till McCowan. But even they were going to stick with the subway, I wish they would commit to building those extensions by 2040. Why just plan the east extension only? There's no real contection between the Spadina and Yonge subways north of the 401. And right now, no commitment to build these anytime. But they should plan for these, since every project now under construction on that map will be completed inside of 10 years. They need to plan the next wave of projects.

Agreed. It's surprising a west extension to Allen rd hasn't been proposed yet, given it would only be a relatively short 2-stop extension and would provide a great benefit for network connectivity. There's still time to commit to a 2030-2040 timeline, so I'm hopeful we hear something over the next few years.

As for LRT conversion, it would indeed be nice to have that flexibility for future extensions past sheppard east and west. I'd be curious to know what price tag would be associated with a retrofit. Either way, doesn't seem like it's being considered.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If they did go the LRT route, it would probably be cheaper and easier to convert the 5 stations on the existing section to low floor rather than making all the new stations high floor since surface LRT tends to have a closer stop spacing and therefore far more stops. For instance, Finch has 18 stops across only 11km making the average distance between stops only 0.65km compared to 1.38km on Sheppard. There may not even be room for high floor stations on some sections of the street, especially if they're going to give it a dedicated ROW (which they should, obviously) since high floor stations need ramps, or stairs.

They could convert the current stations to low floor by raising the track height, and they wouldn't necessarily need to convert it to overhead power. There are examples of electrified lines using 3rd rail in one section and overhead in another. Boston's Blue line come to mind.

Fair points. I often wondered how feasible a conversion from high floor to low floor, or vice versa, would be, especially for tunnel sections. My immediate concern with raising the track height would be whether there would be enough overhead clearance remaining to accommodate LRVs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought subway rolling stock and LRVs generally had similar heights (around 3.6m).

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That said, I'd rather see the line extended as fully grade separated light metro with trains the size of Canada line's and much of the extensions elevated. Should be underground for the 1.4km stretch west to Earl Bales, then emerge onto an elevated structure above the street. If there are noise concerns, it can be an enclosed structure like on part of the Sapporo subway.

100%. This seems like the best option to me as well. It's about time Canadian cities learned from what Vancouver has done well for decades. With the Ontario Line and REM projects, it seems to finally be catching on, though I wish Ottawa had caught on before going forward with the weird tram/light metro hybrid. A Canada Line type service would have been perfect for the Confederation Line.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Interesting idea. Would the cost savings be significant enough to warrant it, though, considering a new fleet of high floor LRVs and an MSF would be required? Grade level stations would also require high level platforms, making stations more substantial and therefore more expensive than low platform stations, like those on the Finch and Eglinton lines.

The east and west extensions to Sheppard West and Sheppard East amount to about 11.5 km. Assuming $300 million per km of subway ($3.45B) and $100 million per km of LRT (1.15B), you save $2.3B. Once the added costs of converting to LRT are factored in, the net costs might not be all that substantial.

Given the relatively low ridership, I wonder if just going with shorter trains and stations would make more sense from a cost saving standpoint.

Edit: Should also add that converting to LRT would require a catenary system to be installed in the existing section of Line 4, which I'm sure is feasible, but not sure what kind of costs would be associated with that.

Realistically any Sheppard LRT conversion will probably still be tunneled till Allen Rd in the West and Agincourt station in the East, as a minimum. So the savings aren't as great. But there are savings. And those savings can be used to run surface LRT to the Zoo in the East and till Weston Rd in the West, effectively making Sheppard the functional equivalent of Eglinton north of the 401. Right now, what's being proposed is kind of ridiculous, it's two transfers in a linear corridor from end to end. And that higher order transit doesn't reach close to UTSC or the Zoo.

If they decide to build a subway extension, I hope they at least switch to Ontario Line technology and convert the existing subway over, so that they can build smaller stations for the new ones and run higher frequencies.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is from the Ontario budget this past week:


Notable that the Sheppard East extension is still 'proposed'.

City staff in Brampton are currently looking at an extension of the Hurontario Line from Steeles to Brampton GO and considering both at-grade and underground options.

It's interesting to see Cummer on the map—is it officially back in the plans/funded now?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Realistically any Sheppard LRT conversion will probably still be tunneled till Allen Rd in the West and Agincourt station in the East, as a minimum. So the savings aren't as great. But there are savings. And those savings can be used to run surface LRT to the Zoo in the East and till Weston Rd in the West, effectively making Sheppard the functional equivalent of Eglinton north of the 401. Right now, what's being proposed is kind of ridiculous, it's two transfers in a linear corridor from end to end. And that higher order transit doesn't reach close to UTSC or the Zoo.

If they decide to build a subway extension, I hope they at least switch to Ontario Line technology and convert the existing subway over, so that they can build smaller stations for the new ones and run higher frequencies.

A Sheppard line conversion is a non-starter. After the SRT debacle, there's no appetite for condemning another swath of the city to years of replacement bus service, especially for a perceived downgrade. If further extensions beyond Sheppard West station and McCowan are to be pursued down the line, I don't see any barriers to extending the current subway on an elevated guideway given that there are no tight curves.

For service to the Zoo, I'd love to see a shuttle from both the new Sheppard/McCowan station and from Rouge Hill GO (esp. after RER-ification and fare integration). Service to UTSC is a bit trickier—aside from the Eglinton East LRT plan, I don't believe there's ever been a serious proposal to bring higher-order transit to the campus. A Sheppard extension that hit both Centennial's Progress campus and UTSC might work, but I doubt we'd see any substantial savings from keeping it at grade given the barriers involved and the limitations of the local street grid. Both of U of T's suburban campuses were unfortunately built strictly around the car and there isn't an easy fix for either.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

A Sheppard line conversion is a non-starter. After the SRT debacle, there's no appetite for condemning another swath of the city to years of replacement bus service, especially for a perceived downgrade. If further extensions beyond Sheppard West station and McCowan are to be pursued down the line, I don't see any barriers to extending the current subway on an elevated guideway given that there are no tight curves.

Does that mean we could see a sideways U for line 2, and line 4 number be dropped? If that is the case, would we not see a way to extend either line 2 or 4 to Durham one day like is done/planned for north and west?

[niwell]

IIRC there have been some studies about converting the Sheppard line to LRT and it's not as easy as one may think. The tunnel bore isn't large enough for catenary and low-floor stations.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by niwell

IIRC there have been some studies about converting the Sheppard line to LRT and it's not as easy as one may think. The tunnel bore isn't large enough for catenary and low-floor stations.

Can always do high floor and/or dual power third rail/catenary.

Studies of the line have been a failure of imagination much like studies of the SRT.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is from the Ontario budget this past week:


Notable that the Sheppard East extension is still 'proposed'.

City staff in Brampton are currently looking at an extension of the Hurontario Line from Steeles to Brampton GO and considering both at-grade and underground options.

Has there been any consideration to extending the Bloor-Danforth line west from Kipling to meet the Hurontario LRT?

While there is a GO Train that connects the two, it runs on CP trackage and I doubt CP wants to allow more passenger service on that line.

[harls]

This was a really good two-part series on Radio-Canada's Découverte (in French, but transit geeks will love it no matter what language you speak)

REM : les défis à surmonter

REM : une expertise nouvelle

edit - site seems pretty buggy.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Has there been any consideration to extending the Bloor-Danforth line west from Kipling to meet the Hurontario LRT?

While there is a GO Train that connects the two, it runs on CP trackage and I doubt CP wants to allow more passenger service on that line.

the gap is wider than you may expect based on that graphic, which is very much not to scale.

Assuming a connection in Cooksville, that's about a 9 kilometre extension. that's longer than the Vaughan subway extension. Plus, it becomes such a long distance that it would be sort of impractical in terms of travel times. You'd be looking at a ~45 minute subway ride from Cooksville to Bloor-Yonge, not including connections on either end.

The better solution is upgraded GO service on the Milton line, which the feds are pushing for. The province hasn't bitten yet however, likely due to challenges negotiating with CP.

The only western extension of Line 2 that has been seriously considered is to Sherway.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

the gap is wider than you may expect based on that graphic, which is very much not to scale.

Assuming a connection in Cooksville, that's about a 9 kilometre extension. that's longer than the Vaughan subway extension. Plus, it becomes such a long distance that it would be sort of impractical in terms of travel times. You'd be looking at a ~45 minute subway ride from Cooksville to Bloor-Yonge, not including connections on either end.

The better solution is upgraded GO service on the Milton line, which the feds are pushing for. The province hasn't bitten yet however, likely due to challenges negotiating with CP.

The only western extension of Line 2 that has been seriously considered is to Sherway.

That would be a better solution, but the best solution IMO is to extend the Ontario line along the Gardiner to Sherway, then along the rail corridor until it would split into two branches. One that would continue alone the (widened) rail corridor and another that would run elevated up Dixie and then onto Burnhampthorpe to Square One. It would then head to the Highway 403 ROW until either forming a loop with the rail corridor branch or until terminating at the Churchill transit stop which is currently part of the busway. In that case the other arm would terminate at the Streetsville GO stop. For most of the day a short shuttle train would connect Milton to the subway while it would run all the way to Union at peak.


This option would be more frequent than the most frequent GO service, automated which reduces labour costs, have a more direct route compared to the Milton line which diverts all the way up to St. Clair, and makes it easier to reach Square one and MCC since it would have smaller and lighter trains. It would also be a faster trip compared to the BD line since the stations would be much farther apart and it would go straight to the financial district without transfer.

Also, according to the link below, the section between Osgoode and Exhibition will have a peak passenger volume of only about half that of the eastern section so there's plenty of spare capacity.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ontario-line-was-relief-line-south-in-design.6155/page-1219