Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Interesting discussion about what a Quebec separation scenario could look like. There were two items not mentioned; Quebec's share of the Canadian debt and airspace. If Canada wanted to play hardball, they could forbid any flights flying to/from Quebec to use Canadian airspace. That would mean a flight from Paris to Montreal would have to first travel south to cross the Atlantic and then loop northwards into New York ATC airspace. Flights would not be able to traverse the normal Europe-NA routes across the North Atlantic as the western half is Canadian controlled airspace out of Gander and Moncton.

No pro-sovereignty Quebec politician has every proposed hard land borders. And not having shared airspace would only really occur if we were at war. The U.S. has always allowed Canadian planes to fly to Cuba over its airspace without issue even though the U.S. severed ties with Cuba.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Nashe

To be fair, the term is quite dismissive. Very "you people".

It's very "us versus them" terminology, an element of tribalism. Whether or not tribalism has redeeming merit is a good question.

Originally Posted by Loco101

I haven't really seen much evidence of woke-ish millennials and Gen Z people outside Quebec in Canada seeing Quebec as being wrong and evil on the things you mentioned. I have definitely seen it in the media but not really in society.

I know some former Quebecers who live here, both Anglo and Quebecois, and their attitude to the changing Quebec is one of some mounting disappointment. It's not something I think about much unless discussing it in such a situation, except when I come to this forum and find it's frequently presented.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You do hear that in Quebec sometimes, though in my experience when it's used it's even less nice than "ROC". ROC is not really used in a mean way, though I won't deny it is dismissive in addition to being a verbal "division" (demarcation).

Delivered as snark, received as a compliment. Totally Canadian/Canadien.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is Quebec asking for people in the ROC to try and learn about the Québécois perspective, or simply demanding that ROCers do an MYOB?

It's more the latter 99% of the time in my observation.

By that logic, the "Christian" Taliban in the US should sweep through the slave states unopposed, and Californians should MYOB even though their fellow Americans are suppressing the black vote, driving LGBT kids to suicide and forcing little girls to give birth for rapists while reading white-washed history books. If human rights are just states rights...

[someone123]

It is important to have a sense of perspective with those municipal councillor initiatives. The HRM proposal was for about 10 cents per inhabitant to be spent. It is one of thousands of similar agenda items, and many of those councillors never met a symbolic progressive opportunity to spend time and money they didn't like (i.e. the Quebec aspect had approximately no impact and the mindshare of this issue was minimal). It would be good if they focused more on the important stuff like providing housing for their own constituents.

I doubt that this funding had any impact on the court cases and the court case outcomes don't just depend on who has the most cash. I think it is a bit misguided to get upset about laws being challenged in court; that's just a part of our legal system.

[someone123]

ROC reminds me of how a lot of Canadians talk about Americans in simplified and dismissive terms. But actually the USA is the more developed and diverse country while Canada is quite small in comparison, not even really a match for a single US region like the Midwest or South.

In reality, the 9 provinces and 3 territories are collectively more developed and diverse than Quebec too. It's not Quebec the jewel and ROC the dreary rump land, even though it's true that Quebec has a lot of cultural distinctiveness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

ROC reminds me of how a lot of Canadians talk about Americans in simplified and dismissive terms. But actually the USA is the more developed and diverse country while Canada is quite small in comparison, not even really a match for a single US region like the Midwest or South.

In reality, the 9 provinces and 3 territories are collectively more developed and diverse than Quebec too. It's not Quebec the jewel and ROC the dreary rump land, even though it's true that Quebec has a lot of cultural distinctiveness.

I think it's worth mentioning though that the "ROC" effectively replaced "le Québec et le Canada" which used to be heard very often. Still is, but not as much.

"Le Québec et le Canada" subtly implies that Quebec and Canada are two separate entities, and that Quebec isn't part of the latter.

At the very least the "ROC" recognizes that Quebec is a part of Canada, just not the part of Canada that most people that would use or hear the expression, actually live in and identify with.

The "ROC" is also a replacement for "le Canada anglais". Again, it's still used but not as often as it once was. "Le Canada anglais" pisses off some members of my family.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is important to have a sense of perspective with those municipal councillor initiatives. The HRM proposal was for about 10 cents per inhabitant to be spent. It is one of thousands of similar agenda items, and many of those councillors never met a symbolic progressive opportunity to spend time and money they didn't like (i.e. the Quebec aspect had approximately no impact and the mindshare of this issue was minimal). It would be good if they focused more on the important stuff like providing housing for their own constituents.

I doubt that this funding had any impact on the court cases and the court case outcomes don't just depend on who has the most cash. I think it is a bit misguided to get upset about laws being challenged in court; that's just a part of our legal system.

I think the most important thing and that which caused all the reactions, is the seamless unanimity in the ROC's political, academic and media classes.

If it had been just Patrick Brown and a few others, it wouldn't have made such a brouhaha.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

By that logic, the "Christian" Taliban in the US should sweep through the slave states unopposed, and Californians should MYOB even though their fellow Americans are suppressing the black vote, driving LGBT kids to suicide and forcing little girls to give birth for rapists while reading white-washed history books. If human rights are just states rights...

Yes, I am aware that view of many ROCers is that Canadians should be subject to the exact same laws and have the exact same application of rights no matter where they live in Canada.

It's still interesting that you would equate Bills 21 and 96 to the highlighted.

[dleung]

Suppressing human rights of girls and LGBT to achieve religious objectives is no different from suppressing human rights of blacks, muslims and anglophones to achieve secular objectives. Simply disagreeing with your view is that fellow countrymen should butt out.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the most important thing and that which caused all the reactions, is the seamless unanimity in the ROC's political, academic and media classes.

Sure but beyond directionality the magnitude and intention also matter. In the end it looks like HRM council voted against spending 10 cents per inhabitant and opted to write a letter instead. I am not sure any other councillors supported the agenda item as initially proposed.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...st-quebec-religious-symbol-ban-1.6311565

But Mayor Mike Savage argued against sending funds, noting that Montreal Mayor Valérie Plante, who is opposed to the bill, has raised concerns about cities using taxpayer dollars to fight laws in other provinces.

"I think it should be challenged by the government of Canada — that's who needs to fight this," said Savage.

A majority of councillors voted against the idea of a grant for the court case.

I don't know all of the councillors but some of them are pretty out there (what does the craziest elected representative in Montreal look like?) while the mayor is more reasonable. I don't follow politics all around every province but in NS they're fairly Quebec/Francophone friendly and generally bland or benign. If you can't handle what politicians in NS are doing you might not be able to get along with just about any other polity in the world. And Ontario is not too far off from that. Alberta can be more aggressive but is far away and a small part of Canada.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On the airspace question, nobody actually does that except for truly rogue states. I very very strongly doubt that Canada-sans-Québec or Quebec would ever try to pull anything of that nature.

They'd probably get in trouble with the ICAO or some other international body if they did.

If negotiations following a referendum won by the Oui got so acrimonious that stuff like this was happening, the US would likely step in and rap both sides knuckles.

The US is the behemoth in the region and they won't tolerate geopolitical anguish like this in their backyard.

In a way, that's a bit of a saving grace - the US and its influence effectively puts a hard cap on how disruptive a Canadian divorce would be.

[lio45]

dleung and the Tennessee GOP: surprising bed fellows!

(Both agree that religion is a human right, and that if your religion says XYZ, then that’s a pass to do whatever you want, such as but not limited to, refusing as a clerk to validate people’s same sex marriages.)

I say, a firm no to dieung-style religious bullshit — and an overwhelming majority of fellow Québécois share my opinion on that one. In Quebec, laws trump religious commands, not the other way around.

[someone123]

This is a tangent I guess but a while ago I was watching some interview of a Quebec separatist guy on French media. He was gushing about France and how important it is for Quebec and on the French side it seemed like he was more of a curiosity of no firmly established import or value.

As an actual geographical neighbour of Quebec, Atlantic Canada has been pretty badly screwed over on multiple occasions. Quebec has aggressively done things like try to buy out NB Power to block land routes to New England for Newfoundland power. And let's be honest, there's no chance that Quebec would allow things like pipelines to NB even if NB wanted them. There is a power imbalance with NB and NL being much smaller neighbours to Quebec and the amount of magnanimity from Quebec is basically 0. Have they finished twinning that one part of the Trans-Canada around Rivière-du-Loup yet?

I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance around how great it would be for Quebec to operate on the world stage and who treats whom well or badly.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's worth mentioning though that the "ROC" effectively replaced "le Québec et le Canada" which used to be heard very often. Still is, but not as much.

"Le Québec et le Canada" subtly implies that Quebec and Canada are two separate entities, and that Quebec isn't part of the latter.

....

It has even infiltrated the federal Cabinet, including the PM. Always makes me want to kick their butts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It has even infiltrated the federal Cabinet, including the PM. Always makes me want to kick their butts.

There is definitely a "missing term" in Canada but finding a good one to replace the ROC is quite elusive. (And of course, using "Quebec" for "francophone Canada" is not ideal either.)

This one doesn't cut it anymore, I suppose: https://www.amazon.ca/Thinking-English-Canada-Philip-Resnick/dp/0773757643

Still I wonder if the German wing of RTS, the national public broadcaster in Switzerland, puts together lists of the greatest Swiss novels ever, or the greatest Swiss albums ever, that include nothing in French or Italian, like the CBC and other media often ignore francophone stuff in their lists?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

dleung and the Tennessee GOP: surprising bed fellows!

(Both agree that religion is a human right, and that if your religion says XYZ, then that’s a pass to do whatever you want, such as but not limited to, refusing as a clerk to validate people’s same sex marriages.)

I say, a firm no to dieung-style religious bullshit — and an overwhelming majority of fellow Québécois share my opinion on that one. In Quebec, laws trump religious commands, not the other way around.

I suppose that he either hates or loves unelected judges (vs democratically elected legislators) based on whether they're upholding US states' rights to outlaw abortion, or overturning the laws of Quebec.

It's admittedly a very user-friendly ideological position that he occupies. We can at least say that much.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is definitely a "missing term" in Canada but finding a good one to replace the ROC is quite elusive. (And of course, using "Quebec" for "francophone Canada" is not ideal either.)

This one doesn't cut it anymore, I suppose: https://www.amazon.ca/Thinking-English-Canada-Philip-Resnick/dp/0773757643

Still I wonder if the German wing of RTS, the national public broadcaster in Switzerland, puts together lists of the greatest Swiss novels ever, or the greatest Swiss albums ever, that include nothing in French or Italian, like the CBC and other media often ignore francophone stuff in their lists?

How about "the big bad wolf", or "the great unwashed"?

The problem I've always detected with the term is that it lumps the ROC together, ignorant of any differences within the group, a foregone assumption of homogeneity, so it's a crude form of color blindness. I think Canada is more distinct as a country than Switzerland. When I meet Swiss, I always assume they are something else, same with Belgians. But it's hard to mistake a Canadien Quebecois for a Frenchman, just like it's hard to mistake Doug Ford for an English gentleman. I've Always felt that Canada is inclusive of Quebec, look at our food labels. Do they do that in Switzerland?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is a tangent I guess but a while ago I was watching some interview of a Quebec separatist guy on French media. He was gushing about France and how important it is for Quebec and on the French side it seemed like he was more of a curiosity of no firmly established import or value.
.

I assume that wasn't Paul St-Pierre Plamondon (PQ leader) or Yves-François Blanchet (BQ leader) as you would have recognized them.

I assume that it's Mathieu Bock-Côté. See here: https://www.cnews.fr/les-replays/face-a-bockcote

He actually started as an occasional guest on various shows in Paris a couple of years ago (based on some books he wrote that got traction in France), then became a regular panelist in a number of media, and now he also has his own show.

Apparently he is responsible for decent ratings boosts on the networks he is on.

Now you know. (If indeed it was him. Pretty sure it was.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

just like it's hard to mistake Doug Ford for an English gentleman.

I think the more appropriate question is whether Doug Ford could be mistaken for a dude who owns an auto dealership in somewhere like Indianapolis.