LRT Stage 3

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And pay to be get STO switched over to Presto.

Why should the STO switch over? If Ottawa switches the Multi, they'd be able to have much more control over what the card would be able to provide, since Multi is STO's inhouse product. Not something being done by the Province. Not to mention i'd imagine the cost of running the service would be less (I highly doubt the STO would make ottawa pay as high of usage fees Presto has). Not to mention you'd have to convince the STO to give up their own inhouse product where they'd have to pay usage fees to use the card they switch to. I don't see that ever happening unless it came from Quebec itself.

[J.OT13]

My guess as to why Ottawa would not take Multi: because we already have significant Presto infrastructure. Beyond having three times more buses, we have an extensive system of Presto fare-gates and vending machines. I'm unsure if they can be converted (buses and fare gates do accept Multi).

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by phil235

This whole debate just screams out for a single transit agency in the NCR.

100% this. There was a proposal years ago for the NCC to take on this function, perhaps in lieu of its current role basically as a land trust, perhaps in addition. I even filled out an NCC consultation with several questions to this end.

Like everything with the NCC in its current iteration, nothing came of it. Nothing ever comes of anything with them.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Honestly, this is one area where the NCC could actually do good. Force the cities to actually integrate transit or simply come up with a model that works. For example, create an agency that runs the rail network. Leave STO and OC Transpo to run local bus feeder services. And pay to be get STO switched over to Presto.

I like this idea. Ottawa and Gatineau could maintain some independence to plan and build their network while the NCC builds and operates a rail network that best serves the entire region.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My guess as to why Ottawa would not take Multi: because we already have significant Presto infrastructure. Beyond having three times more buses, we have an extensive system of Presto fare-gates and vending machines. I'm unsure if they can be converted (buses and fare gates do accept Multi).

Except we don't. Unlike other cities that use Presto, Ottawa bought generic hardware, in part to allow STO passengers to use their Multi-Cards but also as a contingency plan to allow us to move away from Presto if their fees got out of control (and the Province gave us permission to do so).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Except we don't. Unlike other cities that use Presto, Ottawa bought generic hardware, in part to allow STO passengers to use their Multi-Cards but also as a contingency plan to allow us to move away from Presto if their fees got out of control (and the Province gave us permission to do so).

I didn't realize they weren't Presto equipment. Fare gates in Toronto and Ottawa are almost identical, other than a few extra features in Ottawa.

With all the issues we've had with our system, at least our fare gates have been reliable, unlike Toronto.

Ottawa:


https://www.visuallyaccessiblecities.ca/blog/archives/10-2019

Toronto:


https://twitter.com/PRESTOcard/status/748551937075748869

[corynv]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I didn't realize they weren't Presto equipment. Fare gates in Toronto and Ottawa are almost identical, other than a few extra features in Ottawa.

That's because we bought them form the same company. I believe it's just the faregates and ticket/card machines. I'm not sure if ottawa owns the bus system's card scanners or not though.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by corynv

That's because we bought them form the same company. I believe it's just the faregates and ticket/card machines. I'm not sure if ottawa owns the bus system's card scanners or not though.

Pretty sure the scanners in our bus fleet are Presto. Replacing those wouldn't be a herculean task. Many of them might be at the end of their life cycle anyway if/when we were to adopt Multi.

I have to give OC Transpo credit for the fare gates and ticket machines. Easy to use with some good extra features.

[OCCheetos]

I have my doubts about all this... PRESTO contracts all of the hardware to the one company that produces the fare gates, fare machines, and readers on the buses (Scheidt & Bachmann).

STO cards with transfers/passes have always worked on PRESTO readers and vice versa since it doesn't require writing to the card and interacting with PRESTO's infrastructure (and vice versa, again) and the readers only need to read data from the cards.

There are other differences between Toronto and Ottawa's readers like the displays that can't be added to the TTC's on board readers for accessibility reasons(???)

Overall, OC Transpo still uses "PRESTO hardware", but it's obviously been adapted for Ottawa's specifications which included some interoperability with the STO's system.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

100% this. There was a proposal years ago for the NCC to take on this function, perhaps in lieu of its current role basically as a land trust, perhaps in addition. I even filled out an NCC consultation with several questions to this end.

Like everything with the NCC in its current iteration, nothing came of it. Nothing ever comes of anything with them.

I would be totally opposed to the NCC operating a regional transit system. The organization is too bureaucratic, too secretive and too non-accountable.

We would need a completely new agency to operate a regional transit system, that is accountable to both municipalities and the public.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I would be totally opposed to the NCC operating a regional transit system. The organization is too bureaucratic, too secretive and too non-accountable.

We would need a completely new agency to operate a regional transit system, that is accountable to both municipalities and the public.

I would be opposed to the NCC's Board of Directors running the show, but I would support a transit agency under the NCC umbrella with a Board consisting of the NCC CEO and Chairperson, the Mayor of each city, and a dozen or so other elected officials with proportional Ottawa/Gatineau and urban/suburban representation.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I didn't realize they weren't Presto equipment. Fare gates in Toronto and Ottawa are almost identical, other than a few extra features in Ottawa.

With all the issues we've had with our system, at least our fare gates have been reliable, unlike Toronto.

Ottawa:


https://www.visuallyaccessiblecities.ca/blog/archives/10-2019

Toronto:


https://twitter.com/PRESTOcard/status/748551937075748869

The fare gates in Toronto are actually smaller, not as long front to back. These are better for retrofits, but have some drawbacks.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Pretty sure the scanners in our bus fleet are Presto. Replacing those wouldn't be a herculean task. Many of them might be at the end of their life cycle anyway if/when we were to adopt Multi.

I have to give OC Transpo credit for the fare gates and ticket machines. Easy to use with some good extra features.

Ottawa owns the readers on the buses. The difference between them and the faregates/TVMs is simply the software they run. The buses originally connected to the PRESTO backend more directly with the additional ability to read Multi cards, while the faregates connected to FareGo, which operates at the local level. FareGo is the management layer, and connected to PRESTO. The "A" cards, "T" cards and "E" cards are implemented at this layer, so they don't work on the buses. The U-Pass and Transpass are implemented as Multi cards, so they can tap on the buses but don't require change orders to PRESTO.

The buses are actually being updated to interface with FareGo locally, so they should read A, T and E cards. Ottawa has always been in a position to dump PRESTO and implement a local solution with no hardware changes.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Catenary

The fare gates in Toronto are actually smaller, not as long front to back. These are better for retrofits, but have some drawbacks.

The buses are actually being updated to interface with FareGo locally, so they should read A, T and E cards. Ottawa has always been in a position to dump PRESTO and implement a local solution with no hardware changes.

Don't ours also have the QR/Barcode readers and TTC don't?

Also, what are the A, T and E cards?

Personally if ottawa does ever dump presto, i hope they take up Multi, so we can have a completely integrated fare system for once.

[J.OT13]

Thanks for the background Catenary! I somehow hadn't noticed that the TTC fare gates were smaller.

Originally Posted by corynv

Don't ours also have the QR/Barcode readers and TTC don't?

Personally if ottawa does ever dump presto, i hope they take up Multi, so we can have a completely integrated fare system for once.

Yes, ours have those extra features!

I would love to see an integrated fare system and feel like this could still be possible even if STO and OC remain independent.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by phil235

This whole debate just screams out for a single transit agency in the NCR.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yep. Zero doubt in my mind that if this were one transit system, Line 2/Trillium would be going across the PoW bridge and replacing the Rapibus Corridor. Their LRT plans would also have been better integrated as parallel lines through the core, plugged into the existing tunnel, or line which also serve Ottawa (like a Bank St. Subway).

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I'm not a huge advocate of surface tramways, but STO's current plan for a Wellington Surface route is begging to be utilized by a combined Ottawa-Gatineau transit agency to re-institute some of the old tramway routes. I would love to see the STO tram split at Wellington/Elgin, with one branch going south on Elgin Street and another going east on Rideau/Montreal.

Alas, with it being a Gatineau-only tram, extending the route with branches deep into Ottawa doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Honestly, this is one area where the NCC could actually do good. Force the cities to actually integrate transit or simply come up with a model that works. For example, create an agency that runs the rail network. Leave STO and OC Transpo to run local bus feeder services. And pay to be get STO switched over to Presto.

Everyone sees what needs to be done, but the problem is, due to the provincial boundary, the red tap and bureaucratic mess it would cause means it will never happen.

NCC is already mocked. Having it in charge of transit is a mess waiting to happen.

Having the 3 separate transit agencies is worse than the NCC doing it all.

The only reason there isn't one agency is due to the provincial border. Maybe a new province/territory gets created. Till then, it'll be a mess.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by corynv

Don't ours also have the QR/Barcode readers and TTC don't?

Also, what are the A, T and E cards?

Personally if ottawa does ever dump presto, i hope they take up Multi, so we can have a completely integrated fare system for once.

Yes, we have barcodes, which is a local solution to not wanting to issue PRESTO transfers on the buses. Barcodes also work with STO transfers and can work with game-day tickets. All of that is implemented at a local level. For that matter, I did forget about the 3,5 and 7 day passes which are issued on non-PRESTO disposable media based on the S&B FareGo system.

As for the hardware, the top cap on the gate is removable and can be swapped out for barcode, contactless, or other technologies. Toronto had the mag stripe readers for their monthly passes during the transition period.

A, T and E (and R) cards are Accessible, Transit Training, Employee and Retiree cards. They all look similar to a red and white PRESTO card with a picture on it. There's also a C card, which is yellow and for contractors who need staton access, but not bus access. Critically, they are all implemented at a local level and also don't have anti-passback limitations, so they can allow multiple people through a faregate without timing out.

[rakerman]

With the Council approval of the Barrhaven LRT realignment on June 8, 2022, the stations and routes for the two (unfunded) lines are now basically finalised.

To complete Stage 3, Stage 2 Line 1 (Red) would be extended south from Baseline (renamed Algonquin Station) to Barrhaven Centre Station, and Stage 2 Line 3 (Gold) would be extended west from Moodie to Hazeldean Station.

You can see the stations and high-level routes in my blog post Ottawa LRT Stage 3 maps.

Rough timeline for completion would be 2030-2031, if funding and construction follow directly on after Stage 2.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I like your design. If the LRT makes it to Eagleson it would be a disaster if it didn't also go to the Centrum at the same time. Right now the different Park and Rides in Kanata do a good job dividing up the traffic but, if Eagleson is the only direct to rail option, it will get SLAMMED.

Thanks! Updated link —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUipVjz9UVBa4mXG2nGQ

It’s a heavy touch relative to what was EA’d and PIC’d, chewing up a lot of Greenbelt land, and would likely irk people who believe that cars and carpool lots have no place in mass-transit plans like Stage 3 LRT, so would favour bus feed-in. It’s more like a GO station, or the Victoria Park TTC station, and it does suit a future March Road BRT. (See also my sketch for a monumental “roundabout interchange” at March/Teron: https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUjc42BKzbHz8jznAy9Q)

I think it should be considered, though, because Kanata’s geometry forms a wide, flat face against the Greenbelt, causing a huge fan-out of traffic from the 417 interchange at Eagleson. There’ll always have to be a carpool lot there; the only question remaining is, how to unclog the web of intermodal traffic. I think my design (complex though it is) flows a lot better than what’s currently proposed, and MTO might see enough benefit in it to throw some $$ at it.

[Acajack]

Is the short branch from Bayview across the Ottawa River really in anyone's official plans for stage 3?

[Hybrid247]

Not really. It's labelled as "Protected Transportation Corridor" in Ottawa's new Official Plan, which is a downgrade from its previous status as part of the ultimate O-Train network in the previous OP. Tunney's Pasture to Bayview eastbound represents the AM rush hour peak load in ridership forecasts, so I think they realized that Bayview wouldn't be able to handle the extra ridership that would come from Gatineau if they extended Line 2 over the river.