Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Architype]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Politicians in the US get points for making fun of Francophones and nobody really complains, but it's more towards conservatives. From 2003 to 2009 it was like shooting fish in barrel.
Francophones are conquerable and can't be trusted as allies, and most Americans (especially the anti-woke conservatives) know this. It's too risky, since Americans know they might quit and Mali is the most recent example (dog gone quitters!). Plus, we like to rename their inferior foods....freedom fries n' gravy is the most recent.

Let me say this about that. Even dishonourable Nixon wanted good relations with the French. In Canada we'll defend our Québécois as long as they keep making good cheese for us.
Le fromage est la pièce de résistance!

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Politicians in the US get points for making fun of Francophones and nobody really complains, but it's more towards conservatives.

Of course, things like that never, ever happen in Canada...

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by Architype

Let me say this about that. Even dishonourable Nixon wanted good relations with the French. In Canada we'll defend our Québécois as long as they keep making good cheese for us.
Le fromage est la pièce de résistance!

As they are your subjects, I default to the Anglo Canadians.

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Of course, things like that never, ever happen in Canada...

Maybe it should? The Anglos did defeat the Qubecois after all. They are lucky to get reparations, also known as equalization payments.
What's hilarious, is that liojack oppose reparations even though they get them. Their closest allies in the U.S. (anti-woke Republicans) would be so furious and angry if they got that.

I'm actually gonna tell conservatives that Quebecois get reparations.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by TWAK

As they are your subjects, I default to the Anglo Canadians.


Maybe it should? The Anglos did defeat the Qubecois after all. They are lucky to get reparations, also known as equalization payments.
What's hilarious, is that liojack oppose reparations even though they get them. Their closest allies in the U.S. (anti-woke Republicans) would be so furious and angry if they got that.

I'm actually gonna tell conservatives that Quebecois get reparations.

So, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and (apparently in 2023-2024) Ontario are getting reparations too *? Did the Anglos defeated themselves?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

So, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and (apparently in 2023-2024) Ontario are getting reparations too *? Did the Anglos defeated themselves?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Petitcodiac, derived potentially from the Mi'kmaq Petkootkweăk (river that bends like a bow).

/exits thread again

Yeah, that's clearly the original Indigenous name of the river, but was that ever the name of a settlement in the Moncton area?

And there is already another town about half-an-hour west or southwest of Moncton called Petitcodiac, as I am sure you already know.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I am someone who has spoken with a number of pro-sovereignty Quebecers in French since the 1990s. After having spoken with those people the topic has been much less scary and views have really changed over the years. The internet and social media have made many people in Quebec more aware of the ROC and of other countries. So many people there aren't just focused on Quebec alone anymore.

I have some friends from Rouyn-Noranda who are instrumental musicians and speak very little English. They were hardcore separatists in the 1990s and PQ supporters. Today they support Québec-Solidaire and are still left leaning but have told me that the obsession with sovereignty that they used to have no longer exists and that they just would rather Quebec have more control over certain things and to keep its francophone identity. They are certainly still nationalist but now do gigs in various places in Ontario which they never would have considered until social media existed. They also see most anglophones of today being much more respectful and considerate of Quebec and francophones compared to the past.

One thing I can tell you about talking with pro-sovereignty and nationalist Quebecers over the years is that none of them hated Canada. All of them wanted to keep open borders. It wasn't as though we were some type of enemy. The idea of sovereignty wasn't to punish, seek revenge or anything negative. In the even of a "Oui" vote there would be peaceful and reasonable negotiations and nothing done to cause harm. And it definitely didn't mean that Quebec was absolutely 100% going to become a sovereign country.

This is a good post, though for the future the devil is in the details of that highlighted section.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a good post, though for the future the devil is in the details of that highlighted section.

If that is indeed the case, what would those things be? I'm sure at some point, even head scarves and crucifixes could be relegated to "local flavour" if kept in the context of national unity. But... that's just me. Maybe I'm sometimes rational.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Politicians in the United States can score political points by screwing Canada over, and Canada still wants to be part of the trade deal. Québec would only get in a trade deal if it is beneficial, if it isn't, they will find other trading partners. Not necessarily China but China would definitely be interested, especially for resources. And as you mentioned, at 3,5 % of Québec's export, there is room for improvement.

Most likely, if Canada and the US decided to band together to "punish" Québec and not offer it entry in the USMCA or whatever, Québec would then join some sort of trade pact with the EU. France would obviously be a linchpin here, and would help an independent Québec navigate the complex Brussels machinery.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Politicians in the US get points for making fun of Francophones and nobody really complains, but it's more towards conservatives. From 2003 to 2009 it was like shooting fish in barrel.
Francophones are conquerable and can't be trusted as allies, and most Americans (especially the anti-woke conservatives) know this. It's too risky, since Americans know they might quit and Mali is the most recent example (dog gone quitters!). Plus, we like to rename their inferior foods....freedom fries n' gravy is the most recent.

In terms of quitters, no one can beat the Americans in Afghanistan really...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Most likely, if Canada and the US decided to band together to "punish" Québec and not offer it entry in the USMCA or whatever, Québec would then join some sort of trade pact with the EU. France would obviously be a linchpin here, and would help an independent Québec navigate the complex Brussels machinery.

Exactly. Quebec is resource-rich, and also powers the U.S. Northeast to a good degree (so right there, it would make no sense for the Yankees to cut us off; they want our power even more than we want to sell it).

The U.S. trades with even semi-unsavory countries so it would make no sense at all for them to suddenly decide to be closed to a First World country that has tons of resources as well as tons of clean renewable power, and which is right on their border.

[lio45]

Just a little warning, TWAK is a clueless troll who has no interest (nor any knowledge) in the topic. (He also holds the distinction of being the only person who ever made it to my ignore list in 15+ years on SSP.)

He truly has the anti-Midas touch: every thread he touches turns to shit -- unless he's simply ignored.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a good post, though for the future the devil is in the details of that highlighted section.

Yep. Nearly everyone agrees that what we want is the highlighted part of Loco's post. The disagreement is about whether or not sovereignty would be required to get there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

If that is indeed the case, what would those things be? I'm sure at some point, even head scarves and crucifixes could be relegated to "local flavour" if kept in the context of national unity. But... that's just me. Maybe I'm sometimes rational.

I guess I could speculate about what could happen, be done or be envisaged, but regardless I'd simply say that more rumblings about the decline of French are definitely on the horizon, if one looks about what tons of people are saying anecdotally or even the hard stats which New Brisavoine and others are sharing on here.

A likely test will be whether the ROC will in the short to medium term be amenable to letting Quebec define itself what it needs to do to address these challenges.

Judging from the reactions to Quebec Bill 96, I can't say I am super optimistic.

What is going on with Bill C-13, to amend Canada's federal Official Languages Act to address the decline of French all across the country (outside and inside Quebec), also isn't very reassuring for the future.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And there is already another town about half-an-hour west or southwest of Moncton called Petitcodiac, as I am sure you already know.

One way around this problem is that they can simply merge and take the name that wasn't the core city's (...like Hull did).

(Bonus: Moncton gets to increase its lead over Freddy and Saint-John.)

Otherwise, another elegant solution is Petitcodiac becomes Upper Petitcodiac and Moncton becomes Lower Petitcodiac

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. Quebec is resource-rich, and also powers the U.S. Northeast to a good degree (so right there, it would make no sense for the Yankees to cut us off; they want our power even more than we want to sell it).
.

And given agreements signed not that long ago, we will be keeping even more of their lights on for them going into the future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

One way around this problem is that they can simply merge and take the name that wasn't the core city's (...like Hull did).

(Bonus: Moncton gets to increase its lead over Freddy and Saint-John.)

Otherwise, another elegant solution is Petitcodiac becomes Upper Petitcodiac and Moncton becomes Lower Petitcodiac

Or Moncton could become Gros Petitcodiac and the current town could become Petit Petitcodiac!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or Moncton could become Gros Petitcodiac and the current town could become Petit Petitcodiac!

Actually, Petitcodiac would remain Petitcodiac and Moncton would become Groscodiac

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And given agreements signed not that long ago, we will be keeping even more of their lights on for them going into the future.

I wonder if these agreements have a sovereignty provision?

As a test, do you recall whether in 1995, Ottawa was threatening to stop us from continuing to take Churchill Falls' power until 2041 in the event of independence? Canada would stop being both parties of this dispute and start to weigh in on one side only (and they wouldn't hesitate to fully side with NL then).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Unlike the EU, the USMCA is not an economic union but a trade pact covering specific industries. If it has favourable (or, at least, not unfavourable) terms for Canada, it's in sectors that are important for Canadian exporters, but not for Quebec exporters, like auto parts. If Quebec separates, it will have to sit at the bargaining table with the US like the rest of us did, only as a distant 4th partner and one where the number 2 trading partner can score domestic political points fucking them over.

China is 3.5% of Quebec's exports, vs. the US' 85% and getting diplomatically cozier with China on the US' doorstep is something a rogue authoritarian state would do.

Henry Kissinger: The United States doesn't have any permanent friends or allies, only interests.

I strongly doubt that the US would side with the ROC just to make Quebec's life miserable, unless it aligned perfectly with a measure that would be 100% good for the ROC and the US, and detrimental to Quebec. (A rather unlikely proposition considering the very broad aspects of trade, IMO.)

I also really really don't see the ROC getting anywhere by threatening the US that Canada(-sans-Québec) won't trade with the Americans if the Americans also trade with those evil people in Quebec.

Bottom line is that the Americans will want to continue to trade with the ROC (Texas-sized demographics + more resources than TX) and Quebec (New Jersey or Virginia-sized demographics + more resources than those states) and whatever they want, they will get.

I don't necessarily agree that Quebec would cozy up to China that much, but the EU as has been mentioned just a few minutes ago, is a definite possibility.