Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

What's the hardest hardball possible from the RoC? Seems like Quebec would hold all the cards since it wouldn't need nor expect anything beyond its borders. If Canada prefers closed borders, no problem for Quebec. It controls the Seaway and if Ontarians and Maritimers prefer to pass through New England (whose borders would be less closed than Quebec's in the "hardball" scenario), doesn't change anything for us.

The ultimate hardball option for the ROC is partition. Though even there it is fraught with complications and not a slam-dunk.

Indigenous groups would have the best moral case to remain with Canada but as ToxiK alluded to, recognizing their absolute sovereignty over very large swathes of uninhabited resource-rich territory wll create all sorts of precedents in other parts of Canada who have even larger Indigenous populations and way more land claim issues to deal with.

I am not sure I would open that can of worms if I were Ottawa.

Partition of Montreal or even certain parts of SW Quebec is a bit of joke and could not be done without creating a danger of civil unrest.

In these areas the best approach is to tell people to accept the result and move across the border where they would be welcomed with open arms. A divided Montreal in particular would potentially be so unstable that large numbers of people would move out of there and go to Toronto anyway.

I don't think independence would be a walk in the park for Quebec but it's funny that if you attend a party or a barbecue in Kanata or Okotoks, every single person thinks quite strongly that the ROC would have Quebec totally over a barrel and there is nothing Quebec could possibly do about it. As if Quebec has absolutely no eggs in its negotiating basket.

[1overcosc]

Partition might come into play in some extreme circumstances. Like Rapides-des-Joachimes, QC, a majority anglo hamlet of a few hundred people in an isolated area on the Ontario border whose only road connection is through Ontario - they even have Ontario phone numbers despite being in Quebec (as their telecom connections are all to Ontario). This village may very well shift to Ontario in a Quebec independence scenario.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I wouldn't read too much into the 2021 census numbers given the pandemic-related wonkiness we saw in a number of the stats. Maybe a couple thousand Ontario Anglos were living/working remotely from their family cottages in Quebec. Maybe a couple thousand Francophone snowbirds decided not to return home as usual from Florida during the restrictions.

We're not talking about a couple thousands. The number of people with English as their first official language spoken rose by 175,000 in Québec between 2016 and 2021. That's more inhabitants than the census metro areas of Saguenay or Trois-Rivières.

In comparison, between 1971 and 1981 the number of people with English as their first official language spoken had dropped by only 71,000.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I place the start of the decline in sympathy at the free trade election of 1988, when Québec went all in for it and backed Mulroney, and progressives in the ROC were against it for both union jobs and "Canadian culture".

A lot of people told me that they felt betrayed by Québec . I was in university in Ontario at the time and lots of people were pissed that Quebec put Mulroney over the top.

Then a few years later Quebec got the bad guy role in the Oka crisis just as people were beginning to get more interested in Indigenous issues.

Of course 1995 happened with Parizeau's declaration that made lots of people lose their minds.

Also in recent years other groups have come along and become the "little guy" flavours of the month that it is de rigueur for progressives to support. In many cases these groups don't have entirely positive relationships with Quebec. So bonus points!

In some ways the change in the ROC's relationship to Quebec reminds me of the shift in attitude towards Jews and Israel in US politics.

I had no idea about the free trade issue - that was before my time.

The woke segment of the left has an unhealthy tendency to engage in what I call "victim porn" - an obsession with always fawning over "the little guy". This results in some weird thinking - for example, the tendency to turn on a given minority the second they start becoming successful.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lio45

What's the hardest hardball possible from the RoC? Seems like Quebec would hold all the cards since it wouldn't need nor expect anything beyond its borders. If Canada prefers closed borders, no problem for Quebec. It controls the Seaway and if Ontarians and Maritimers prefer to pass through New England (whose borders would be less closed than Quebec's in the "hardball" scenario), doesn't change anything for us.

Because the Seaway connects to US ports, the US wouldn't have much tolerance for it to be shut, so Quebec probably couldn't play that card.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A restaurant in Quebec City even opened with English only signs, menus and service.

Isn't it forbidden under Québec law?

And why do you think these guys are doing it in the first place, in a city where 90% of their customers are going to be French-speaking? They wouldn't do it in Paris despite the fact there are many international tourists in Paris. Is it because they have a mentality "oh, give me a break, it's Canada, everybody speaks English"?

I don't mean they are ROCers by the way, I suppose they are immigrants, but a lot of immigrants from non-Francophone countries have that mentality it seems to me. On the SSC forum, the number of times I've seen forumers from non-Francophone Europe and elsewhere being like "oh, Canada is an Anglophone country anyway, Québec cannot really be counted in the Francophone world" (be it GDP of the Francophone world, or total population of the Francophone world, or example of former French colony that turned out successfully, etc).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Because the Seaway connects to US ports, the US wouldn't have much tolerance for it to be shut, so Quebec probably couldn't play that card.

That's true, though the other transportation restrictions (road and rail) would definitely be a possibility. Note that I don't think Quebec would ever do this, barring a really extreme situation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

What's the hardest hardball possible from the RoC? Seems like Quebec would hold all the cards since it wouldn't need nor expect anything beyond its borders. If Canada prefers closed borders, no problem for Quebec. It controls the Seaway and if Ontarians and Maritimers prefer to pass through New England (whose borders would be less closed than Quebec's in the "hardball" scenario), doesn't change anything for us.

In the most hardball scenario I guess they would threaten to cut Gatineau's access to Ottawa. But this will never happen anyway. Canada is not Yugoslavia (well I hope so at least ).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I had no idea about the free trade issue - that was before my time.

The woke segment of the left has an unhealthy tendency to engage in what I call "victim porn" - an obsession with always fawning over "the little guy". This results in some weird thinking - for example, the tendency to turn on a given minority the second they start becoming successful.

Woke people have lots of motivations, some of them extremely noble but of course there are also grifters and the people looking for psychological solace and meaning in their lives.

The latter ones are those who seek out (often "white") "saviour" status in the eyes of minorities, in order to feel better about themselves.

Those large gatherings of white Americans who collectively make "pledges" to the black population are pretty freaky.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In the most hardball scenario I guess they would threaten to cut Gatineau's access to Ottawa. But this will never happen anyway. Canada is not Yugoslavia (well I hope so at least ).

That is definitely one possibility, though I wonder what would be more damaging between goods and people not being able to freely travel between Ontario and the Maritimes (for Canada-sans-Québec) versus Gatineau being cut off from Ottawa (for the République du Québec).

The effects would not necessarily be the same, but consider Gatineau has 3-4% of Quebec's population, whereas Atlantic Canada is 8-9% of the population of the ROC.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It will be argued that other highly interesting options would be available to Canada-sans-Québec so as to play hard ball with the République on other fronts, like building highways and railways through northern Maine, or *demanding* a corridor that would remain Canadian territory along the A-20 and A-85 routings (that happen to have railways running close by).

Seems like an awful lot of cash and trouble, in addition to being extremely unlikely, in order to stick it to the Frenchies for breaking up Canada.

Something that tinpot dictatorships in the Caucasus would do.

Could depend on how pissed off Canada feels (maybe not very), how strong the “yes” vote is (ie strength of mandate/negotiating position). Transit corridors guaranteed by treaty would be one option (with international precedents)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Isn't it forbidden under Québec law?

And why do you think these guys are doing it in the first place, in a city where 90% of their customers are going to be French-speaking? They wouldn't do it in Paris despite the fact there are many international tourists in Paris. Is it because they have a mentality "oh, give me a break, it's Canada, everybody speaks English"?

I don't mean they are ROCers by the way, I suppose they are immigrants, but a lot of immigrants from non-Francophone countries have that mentality it seems to me. On the SSC forum, the number of times I've seen forumers from non-Francophone Europe and elsewhere being like "oh, Canada is an Anglophone country anyway, Québec cannot really be counted in the Francophone world" (be it GDP of the Francophone world, or total population of the Francophone world, or example of former French colony that turned out successfully, etc).

Yes, it is against the law but the law is violated all the time. As you can imagine, it's hard to control and the OQLF relies on complaints and does not have that many resources.

Even so they sometimes make the anglophone news with stories of exaggerated application of the law - or at least that is what is often alleged.

In this case the restaurateur was of Korean origin and had operated a restaurant in New Brunswick before - I've heard Fredericton or Edmundston as the cities. Fredericton is 95% anglophone or more, whereas Edmundston in spite of its name is 95% francophone and right on the Quebec border. Though Quebec language laws do not apply in Edmundston.

Anyway I only know the reasons the restaurateur cited to the media: he doesn't speak French yet but wants to learn, he can't find any French speaking staff or anyone to translate his written materials that are only in English...

Yes, this is the type of stuff that is increasingly common in Quebec - especially in Montreal and Gatineau but now it is happening in other areas of Quebec as well.

As I mentioned earlier - the labour shortage exists everywhere but for some reason doesn't seem to impact people's ability to get served in the main language of other places in the world as significantly as it does in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Transit corridors guaranteed by treaty would be one option (with international precedents)

That could be a possibility though not the same as having all of the towns along the A-20 corridor split off from Quebec and becoming part of, say, Ontario or New Brunswick. The latter being out of the realm of plausibility, I'd argue. (Some even talk about the entire south shore of the St. Lawrence for this split, though they are rather silly and probably should be tested for hallucinogenic drugs.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Could depend on how pissed off Canada feels (maybe not very), how strong the “yes” vote is (ie strength of mandat/negotiating position). s)

While obviously not everyone, I think that the percentage of ROCers who would almost be relieved by this eventuality is considerably higher than generally recognized.

I remember watching a documentary about a secret dinner that was held (somewhat ironically, at Café Henry Burger in Hull) in the days or weeks before the 1995 referendum.

It brought together key federal Ministers from the ROC (including Brian Tobin and David Collenette) but none from Quebec, and even excluded Prime Minister Jean Chrétien himself.

What was discussed was the game plan if the Oui side won, and one of the conclusions arrived at was that if that happened, Jean Chrétien was no longer THE MAN in charge.

At least in the view of those ROC power brokers around the table.

I've never heard confirmation but I wonder if there weren't also discussions about that with Premiers of the ROC provinces.

[1overcosc]

Didn't Preston Manning say in 1995 that he'd be happy with a Oui victory?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While obviously not everyone, I think that the percentage of ROCers who would almost be relieved by this eventuality is considerably higher than generally recognized.

I remember watching a documentary about a secret dinner that was held (somewhat ironically, at Café Henry Burger in Hull) in the days or weeks before the 1995 referendum.

It brought together key federal Ministers from the ROC (including Brian Tobin and David Collenette) but none from Quebec, and even excluded Prime Minister Jean Chrétien himself.

What was discussed was the game plan if the Oui side won, and one of the conclusions arrived at was that if that happened, Jean Chrétien was no longer THE MAN in charge.

At least in the view of those ROC power brokers around the table.

I've never heard confirmation but I wonder if there weren't also discussions about that with Premiers of the ROC provinces.

It is inconceivable (to me) that a Quebec-based politician could lead MOC into a negotiation post-yes vote referendum. Even if one took the view that Canada represented “No” voters, it would just be too weird.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It is inconceivable (to me) that a Quebec-based politician could lead MOC into a negotiation post-yes vote referendum. Even if one took the view that Canada represented “No” voters, it would just be too weird.

Can't disagree.

I just was a bit surprised at how quickly they were planning on turning the page on the little guy from Shawinigan. Though maybe I shouldn't have been.

In any event it really underlines how all the brave talk about maybe nothing changing in the event of a (even slim) Oui vote was all just grandstanding.

The referendum truly was seen as binding and decisive by the Ottawa people with power. Even if they didn't share this fact publicly, for obvious reasons.

On another note, I have friends who worked at Radio-Canada stations in the ROC (though not the one in Ottawa) at the time who were told by management that if the Oui won they'd be shut down very quickly and to start thinking about plans to move (back, in most cases) to Quebec in short order if it happened.

[Acajack]

Not in Quebec but definitely related to the French language and francophone identity...

Some Acadian groups are renewing calls for the Université de Moncton to be renamed as the school celebrates its 60th anniversary this year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/university-moncton-name-change-2023-1.6765600?cmp=rss

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not in Quebec but definitely related to the French language and francophone identity...

Some Acadian groups are renewing calls for the Université de Moncton to be renamed as the school celebrates its 60th anniversary this year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/university-moncton-name-change-2023-1.6765600?cmp=rss

In other news, Coca-Cola is going to rebrand because of all the historical baggage around it once containing "cocaine"... ;D

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

In other news, Coca-Cola is going to rebrand because of all the historical baggage around it once containing "cocaine"... ;D

All in the spirit of the times!

And since Monc(k)ton was such as bad dude, next we'll be coming after the name of your city!

And MonctonRad's user name!