DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Thanks for the update on 1199 Bannock. Driving up the four blocks from Speer to 13th Ave on Bannock, I spotted at least six development sites with some sort of activity just on Bannock. It looks like there's a lot of movement of the SE corner of 12th and Bannock.

[TakeFive]

Just Curious?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think you're about 40 years too early for most of the older people here.

So, was Paradise Cleaners Buzz Geller's primary source of income back in the day and thru the years?

According to concept plans submitted by.... Paradise Land Company has proposed the construction of two residential buildings at 3300-3310 E. Colfax Ave. (the former site of Paradise Cleaners) that will provide a combined 80 rental units.

Per the Denver Post back in May of 2013

A corporate officer of Denver-based Paradise Cleaners has purchased a 50 percent stake in the dry-cleaning business. Matt Linkow, who serves as chief executive officer of Paradise, bought the shares previously owned by David Paderski. Terms were not disclosed.

The other 50 percent of the company continues to be owned by Denver businessman Buzz Geller.

Note -- Many may have been aware of Buzz's background but since he's been subject of much notoriety on this site going way, way back, I thought it worthwhile to connect the dots.

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Maybe not quite 40 years, the legal drinking age was like 8yrs old back in the 60s wasn't it?

IIRC, this was the summer following my Junior year in HS and the three of us were underaged for enjoying samples at the brewery. We would have been 17 yrs old. However, I do believe we got served up in Central City. But yes, for so-called 3.2 beer, 18 was the legal drinking age.

[TakeFive]

Urban Density versus the Suburbs - another reason to hate the suburbs?



American workers aren’t returning to the office like their international counterparts—here’s why
Mar 2 2023 By Jennifer Liu - CNBC

U.S. office occupancy remains stagnant around 40% to 60% of pre-pandemic levels, varying by month and by city, according to data from the commercial real estate firm JLL and reported by The Wall Street Journal.

Meanwhile, office attendance has returned to 70% to 90% in Europe and the Middle East, and around 80% to 110% in some Asian cities

And the answer is?

Americans are more likely than people throughout Europe and Asia to live in the suburbs and have bigger homes, making it more appealing to work from home.

And the prediction is?

A 50% average office attendance rate could become the new norm for American workers, says Owl Labs CEO Frank Weishaupt...

One certainty: Americans will never view the purpose of the office in the same way, says John Gates, JLL CEO of Americas Markets

Point One

One usually overlooked dynamic (here) is the role of the family. For those of you 'in the know' Mama usually makes the decision on where to live (which can include work location). Suburbs are top of mind for most families. It's why Central Park has been so successful and is popular among families.

Point Two

Currently (sadly) urban areas are often seen as having higher crime which again play's to Mama's decision on where to live. While crime (in metro Denver) is everywhere, the perception is that suburbs are safer including Central Park, Wash Park etc.

Given the priorities of families the schools are central to Mama. Even with Denver Schools lower density neighborhoods with more families are seen as better places to live.

Be careful what you ask for?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Currently (sadly) urban areas are often seen as having higher crime which again play's to Mama's decision on where to live. While crime (in metro Denver) is everywhere, the perception is that suburbs are safer including Central Park, Wash Park etc.

Given the priorities of families the schools are central to Mama. Even with Denver Schools lower density neighborhoods with more families are seen as better places to live.

Be careful what you ask for?

You say some weird stuff. If you are counting Wash Park as a "suburb," then what are you counting as "the city"? Denver doesn't exactly have a giant urban core full of neighborhoods that are not single-family. If you're saying "Mama doesn't prefer to live in a high rise with her three kids," I am not sure many would disagree. But that's not the choice Mama makes in Denver. If you're saying "Mama would rather live in Aurora than a 2,500 square foot bungalow in a core Denver neighborhood," I think you're nuts. That's where your Mama looks at your Daddy and says, "go make us some more damn money so I can afford to live where I want to live."

At least, in your 1950s hypothetical.

... which is why I can open up my realtor app now, and plug in a quick 3 bed/2 bath search for Mama in a radius around my current location and see... lowest, $1.18 million, most well over $2 million... go east a bit...lots of $1.4-1.8 million... scroll toward Wash Park and I am seeing mostly $3.0 million... swipe back to the west, finally I see some $900k houses in those closer high crime neighborhoods...cross I-25 and 🞵🞵🞵🞵, I am back in a sea of $1.4-2.3 million... complete my loop, finally, I see some $700k stuff way out northeast on the low end (but still plenty of $1.1 million for Mama to choose from)... it's all looking REALLY UNDESIREABLE. A real exodus. That, or our crime wave is creating an awful lot of wealth in the city. Fentanyl driving high-paying jobs? There's my old 2 bed/1 ba 1,100 sf 1946 ticky-tacky asbestos box, which the app tells me is somehow worth $650k (probably the beige siding scrape 3,800 sf monstrosity for $1.8 million across the street driving that math)... the suburbs must be REALLY expensive if this is what the ghetto costs. Damn.

I just can't reconcile your comments with the other perception in Denver that if you can't afford the city, you are stuck moving to the suburbs. You must know something the invisible hand of the free market is getting terribly wrong. Any stocks you'd recommend I buy? Or would your investment advice be to buy farm land in Bennett to get ahead of the next wave?

[gopokes21]

Can anyone who tracks projects point me toward a listing of all development underway in Globeville and Elyria-Swansea?

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by laniroj

When I say Denver, I'm really talking about the center city and maybe one ring of the original 1890's suburbs...call it york to federal, I70 to speer.

Plenty of new license plates, yes, but that's not my point, which is that those I know living in the center city are leaving.

I have a ton of friends who fall in this category of recently leaving downtown. However they all miss downtown or Cap Hill. The reason they left is just growing old and making more money, and wanting to buy a house with a yard. We're all in our 30 and 40s now and partied out.

It's just the cycle of life, but there appear to be more than enough Gen Z folks moving to Denver to take our old places in Cap Hill, Five Points, or elsewhere around downtown. I for one didn't go far as I own in Congress Park.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Point Two

Currently (sadly) urban areas are often seen as having higher crime which again play's to Mama's decision on where to live. While crime (in metro Denver) is everywhere, the perception is that suburbs are safer including Central Park, Wash Park etc...

It's not a perception, it's reality. Denver's violent crime rates ended 2020 at something like 850/100k. Colorado as a whole is 400/100k and the Springs is 600/100k. Denver has more violent crime and it's increasing in the direction of levels not seen since the mid 80's and early 1990's from our 'war on drugs'. This is not a good thing and it's why the entire mayoral debate is centered around crime and homelessness (no I am not linking or decoupling those two things).

IMO, the same reason people I know are leaving Denver (crime, homelessness in front of their house and in their alley and through their car) is the same reason companies are leaving downtown for RiNo, DTC, Lone Tree. Hopefully city government in Denver can get a handle on crime, but I'm not holding my breath. Also, it's not just Denver because most urban cities are experiencing the same trend.

Also, I find it slightly suspicious that crime in Denver really started to increase nearly EXACTLY when mary jane was legalized. The skunk invaded in January 2014 and 2014 is the first year when crime began it's meaningful trend upward. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe not. History will tell us so long as AI isn't writing it by then.

[DUPio]

We were already getting priced out of the "nicer" areas of Denver when we left in 2019 for Phoenix. I'm talking places where you could have ~2500 sqft SFH with a yard and reasonably safe/enjoyable place to walk. We would have loved to live in Wash Park, Platt Park, Congress Park, Highland, etc etc but couldn't afford it back then despite being a 2 income household both making decent incomes. I look at prices now and those same places are so far out of reach it's laughable. Basically 7 figures for anything in those areas that isn't a tear down or on a busy street. Perhaps people living in Union Station/Cap hill who are looking to buy a home are "leaving" to go out into the suburbs but they are replaced by the next wave of young people. And those families like us that left are replaced by even higher net worth families who come in and CAN afford those nicer areas. People are still obviously flocking to live in Denver, especially in this work from home environment where a CA techie or a NYC banker can bring those salaries. It's a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 reality for those of us who have worked hard hoping to live in those areas and can't afford it, but hey no one is entitled to live in those places. We left since a nice house in Phoenix/Scottsdale was much cheaper and physician salaries are significantly better in AZ. Didn't seem worth it to go live in Firestone. If it's hard for us, 2 working professionals who feel reasonably successful to afford something "urban-adjacent" then don't be surprised when other typical families have to leave the city proper if they ever want to own a house. If it ever came back to Earth then we would move back, but in the meantime it's hard to justify that when Phoenix is actually pretty nice 8 months a year and we bought a house before things went crazy. I suspect its a similar scenario for many families who want to live close to the urban amenities but reality sets in and they end up in Parker. It's not an "exodus", it's supply and demand. And demand is still very high.

[TakeFive]

Briefly

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You say some weird stuff. If you are counting Wash Park as a "suburb," then what are you counting as "the city"?

At least, in your 1950s hypothetical.

I just can't reconcile your comments with the other perception in Denver that if you can't afford the city, you are stuck moving to the suburbs. You must know something the invisible hand of the free market is getting terribly wrong.

I appreciate it's hard to read people's minds - especially mine.

There's no reference in my post to housing costs. That's a whole different topic. But you were close when you referenced the 1950's.

When I moved to talking about families you could call it the history for how cities developed (generally outward) and how important the 'family' was to what happened and how important schools were to each neighborhood or area. There's always been more affluent areas and more affordable areas but regardless of one's lot in life all families ie parents want what is best for the children. They identify with their neighbors and their neighborhoods and schools have long been a magnet and of key importance.

With respect to urban and suburban, downtown Denver has always been the urban core of the whole metro area. That said there were other cities that also developed outside of Denver but the same dynamics played out for how cities developed. They were driven by young families moving into new developments and their neighborhood schools.

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Can anyone who tracks projects point me toward a listing of all development underway in Globeville and Elyria-Swansea?

There was a couple (husband and wife) that bought in RiNo, then flipped their land (and plans) and bought in Elyria-Swansea with nice semi-affordable plans. Not sure what or where that is at. Seems I recall a Moore family descendant being involved also.

[UrbanRoy]

Anyone hear anything about 17th and California? Stumbled on this quote on the architect's website. "This 44-story high-rise located on the southwest corner of 17th and California street in Denver, CO would have (my emphasis) brought new height to the Denver skyline with beautiful amenities and views." Doesn't sound promising... and that was one of my favorite new developments.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by DUPio

If it ever came back to Earth then we would move back, but in the meantime it's hard to justify that when Phoenix is actually pretty nice 8 months a year and we bought a house before things went crazy. I suspect its a similar scenario for many families who want to live close to the urban amenities but reality sets in and they end up in Parker. It's not an "exodus", it's supply and demand. And demand is still very high.

Ugh. It's the other 4 months of the year that makes me leery of AZ and the slow transition towards, "it's pretty nice 4 months of the year."

My brother likes the Scottsdale, though. Keeps on trying to convince me to move there.

[TakeFive]

Very well said

Originally Posted by laniroj

It's not a perception, it's reality.

This is not a good thing and it's why the entire mayoral debate is centered around crime and homelessness (no I am not linking or decoupling those two things).

It could be worse; at least Denver isn't Portland.
Note: I found that video/article on Yahoo last night. The content is from Fox News but don't necessarily shoot the messenger. It is fair to say they emphasize the negative but it is well done. I can also say I've picked up passengers from Portland and surrounding areas and they would agree with that piece.

I wouldn't agree that cannabis is a gateway drug but I would agree that many who use it are the type to also try other drugs. Fentanyl etc is a huge and growing problem and would have occurred regardless of cannabis.

This year's Mayoral elections are huge.
------------------------------

Interesting

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Ugh. It's the other 4 months of the year that makes me leery of AZ and the slow transition towards, "it's pretty nice 4 months of the year."

My brother likes the Scottsdale, though. Keeps on trying to convince me to move there.

What part of Scottsdale does your brother live?

I have Pax (passengers) ask me all the time which city I like better, Denver or Phoenix and my answer is always the same.

"I love Denver (and Colorado) but it's changed a lot since I moved away - but so have most cites. Both cities have their advantages and disadvantage."

[DUPio]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Ugh. It's the other 4 months of the year that makes me leery of AZ and the slow transition towards, "it's pretty nice 4 months of the year."

My brother likes the Scottsdale, though. Keeps on trying to convince me to move there.

Summer is hard, no doubt. Lots of pool time and weekend trips to the mountains. My preference is heat > cold though so its not too bad.

I love Phoenix and wouldn't mind raising our children here. Tempe and Roosevelt Row are urbanizing fast (still long ways to go) and there is a lot to do down here.

We used to live in Union Station area and loved it before all the homeless camps set up shop which added enormous stress to our lives. I think that soured our view of Denver and was an aspect of pushing us to leave. But when we go back to visit family and walk around I find myself missing it much more than I thought I would. It has come a LONG way since I first moved there in 2010. The density from the Riverfront Park area spanning to Golden Triangle and Rino is impressive. I used to take the E line from Platt Park just to walk around Union Station when basically nothing was there and the station was being renovated. Unbelievable transformation. We have many fond memories from living down there prior to its issues and I hope it gets them sorted out. My pops grew up in Globeville and when we drove through Rino that way about 5 years ago he was shocked by the development and the fact that it was becoming "hip". I'm sure its even more pronounced now based on how it looked from I-25. Good times. Great city. Hope prices drop a bit (LOL).

[Whereveryougo]

While still not perfect by any means, Union Station has improved a lot over the last few months.

[Darius C]

Denverite's Nathaniel Minor reporting:
https://denverite.com/2023/03/01/rtd-rider-rules-we-rode-all-day/
My headline is unfair to RTD since they are trying to do something about it. Note that I sympathize with the people sheltering on trains, but it is simply untenable to let them take over public spaces, especially if some are quick to act violently. After several midday incidents, I now hesitate to use public transportation in Denver.

[Tykendo]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Very well said


It could be worse; at least Denver isn't Portland.
Note: I found that video/article on Yahoo last night. The content is from Fox News but don't necessarily shoot the messenger. It is fair to say they emphasize the negative but it is well done. I can also say I've picked up passengers from Portland and surrounding areas and they would agree with that piece.

I wouldn't agree that cannabis is a gateway drug but I would agree that many who use it are the type to also try other drugs. Fentanyl etc is a huge and growing problem and would have occurred regardless of cannabis.

This year's Mayoral elections are huge.
------------------------------

Interesting

What part of Scottsdale does your brother live?

I have Pax (passengers) ask me all the time which city I like better, Denver or Phoenix and my answer is always the same.

"I love Denver (and Colorado) but it's changed a lot since I moved away - but so have most cites. Both cities have their advantages and disadvantage."

Fox news is trash. I just moved from Denver to Portland, and while homelessness is a problem, for sure, and drug use among the homeless is a major issue, the city is doing more to attack the situation. Friendliness is higher here among locals than in Denver, and the restaurant scene is doing well. Fox is purely political, and makes sure it shows the worst of the worst. They also find like minded people ,politically, to interview. Denver is trending up right now. Mostly upper class earners, who are insulated from the mean streets. I'm not saying Portland doesn't have it's issues, but it's not as bad as Fox News makes it out to be. Denver's advantage is that the amount of sunshine it gets, covers up a lot of it's warts.

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by laniroj

It's not a perception, it's reality. Denver's violent crime rates ended 2020 at something like 850/100k. Colorado as a whole is 400/100k and the Springs is 600/100k. Denver has more violent crime and it's increasing in the direction of levels not seen since the mid 80's and early 1990's from our 'war on drugs'. This is not a good thing and it's why the entire mayoral debate is centered around crime and homelessness (no I am not linking or decoupling those two things).

IMO, the same reason people I know are leaving Denver (crime, homelessness in front of their house and in their alley and through their car) is the same reason companies are leaving downtown for RiNo, DTC, Lone Tree. Hopefully city government in Denver can get a handle on crime, but I'm not holding my breath. Also, it's not just Denver because most urban cities are experiencing the same trend.

Also, I find it slightly suspicious that crime in Denver really started to increase nearly EXACTLY when mary jane was legalized. The skunk invaded in January 2014 and 2014 is the first year when crime began it's meaningful trend upward. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe not. History will tell us so long as AI isn't writing it by then.

crime comes and goes. i don't think it's really a long term driver for people deciding whether to stay in their million dollar city center property or not. most of my neighbors in the city center have hunkered down and taken on renovation projects and such, even with gunfire ringing out throughout the day or night could be a possibility.

however, if you're in my boat and you see the local neighborhood schools closing, resulting from the complete abomination that is school choice in denver, you are left without a choice. people want to raise their kids in neighboords with other kids. that's just not really possible in many of these neighborhoods as the local elementary schools get completely neglected and everyone and all the resources go to the popular school somewhere else.

the mayoral candidates love crime and homelessness, but neither are really that impactful to most of us. what is impactful is what is there for our children to do. in our case, the local school is slated to be closed! so are we going to leave? of course we are. we want to be around other kids and in a neighborhood community with other kids. so it's not crime that's forcing our move. it's not even the price of land. it's simply the destructive policies that are so popular nobody will ever touch but it leaves enormous holes in the neighborhoods. there are virtually no kids anywhere in the city center neighborhoods. that's freaking crazy...

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Also, I find it slightly suspicious that crime in Denver really started to increase nearly EXACTLY when mary jane was legalized. The skunk invaded in January 2014 and 2014 is the first year when crime began it's meaningful trend upward. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe not. History will tell us so long as AI isn't writing it by then.

🞵🞵🞵🞵. there are twice as many 🞵🞵🞵🞵 out there as there were just a few years ago. mj didn't kill that kid at east high school, it was a 🞵🞵🞵.

we hear gunfire weekly. a few months ago i literally had to tell my mother to get on the floor in our house while it sounded like vietfuckingnam outside. i can't recall if this was before of after the mid day shootout in front of the park where we play. it's like every 12 year old has access to a 🞵🞵🞵 now which was never the case before and why it seems so hopeless. but where are you going to go to get away from it? 🞵🞵🞵🞵 have taken over america and america seems to love it. i've still yet to hear one politician call for the repeal of the 2nd amendment. that should tell you all you need to know. america!

[MovinOnUp]

Originally Posted by UrbanRoy

Anyone hear anything about 17th and California? Stumbled on this quote on the architect's website. "This 44-story high-rise located on the southwest corner of 17th and California street in Denver, CO would have (my emphasis) brought new height to the Denver skyline with beautiful amenities and views." Doesn't sound promising... and that was one of my favorite new developments.

The "Would have" is coming across a little bitter.

While I'd be sad to see this go - it was a little generic for such a central tower that could have a defining impact on the skyline. Not holding by breath, but would hope for something more unique (and much taller) to go here.

FWIW, this was one of my favorite iterations of 16th and California:

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by MovinOnUp

The "Would have" is coming across a little bitter.

While I'd be sad to see this go - it was a little generic for such a central tower that could have a defining impact on the skyline. Not holding by breath, but would hope for something more unique (and much taller) to go here.

FWIW, this was one of my favorite iterations of 16th and California:

Dunno, the city is still processing the site development and transportation plans with the last update being published as of January 30th of this year. So maybe it's still alive and this is just some poor text choice on the architects website.