[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[DyAm00394]

Supply Chain Snags Hold Up Sydney Street Courthouse Conversion

"Supply chain issues are slowing but not stopping the Sydney Street courthouse theatre project.

“The project is still full speed ahead as far as we’re concerned,” says Saint John Theatre Company executive director Stephen Tobias, in an interview with Huddle.

“We’ve long since learned to write all our plans in pencil as the world changes around us. But the working plan we have right now is that we’re gearing up to get major shovels in the ground by spring of 2024.”

He says all the groundwork has been laid for the start of the major construction that would see the 10,000-square-foot space grow to 25,000 square feet.

He says all the major services and electrical are in the building, the hill behind the property has been dug out in preparation for the expansion, and the interior is prepped and ready to go.

The main ingredient that’s missing is a reliable source of steel for the ambitious project. They’ve seen months-long delays getting it and other construction material, as well as significant price volatility.

“We have a 200-year-old stone building that suffered a massive fire 100 years ago,” Tobias explains. “So, they built a steel-frame building inside a 200-year-old stone building, and we’re attaching an addition onto the rear of that.”

It’s a complex project at the best of times, but the lingering effects of supply chain delays are causing more uncertainty.

“We’ll want to know that major pieces of the infrastructure are ready to go before we pull the trigger on digging holes in the ground.”

He says in addition to making the building as environmentally friendly as possible, the impacts of the pandemic have also played into the plans for the theatre, changing designs to better suit a post-pandemic world.

“We added another elevator to the building to create better movement, we expanded the size of the lobbies, we reconfigured the bathroom entrances and exits to improve the flow of people… we increased the backstage areas.

“It’s not a big stretch to think that five years down the road, a couple of years after we get this facility open, there could be something else that rolls out and we’re going to be really grateful that we made those changes to the building when we had the chance.”

EXP Architects is the designer of the new project, with Riverview’s Avant Garde Construction Management doing the “heavy lifting.” Saint John’s CBCL is also playing a supporting role.

The facility will house box office, backstage, dressing and rehearsal spaces, as well as spots for administration. There will also be a lobby café and a small rehearsal studio. It will be capable of hosting up to three events simultaneously.

And then, of course, there’s the theatre space itself.

“It’s designed to be flexible in terms of how the seating can be managed,” Tobias says. He notes the venue will hold between 200 to 250 seats “which is a missing piece of cultural infrastructure in the community”.

Tobias says the project continues to be important not only for the Saint John Theatre Company but for the community as a whole.

“We own the BMO Studio Theatre, which is a 100-seat, high-tech studio theatre. We have the Imperial Theatre, which is 900 seats [and a] gorgeous, state-of-the-art facility.”

“But there’s a range of programming that isn’t working in the community because we don’t have that mid-range space that’s designed to house theatre, music, dance, and other arts cultural events… [that] don’t justify using a 900 seat facility.”

“It’s a necessary piece of infrastructure that is really going to benefit our community and our cultural groups.”

https://huddle.today/2023/02/22/supply-chain-snags-hold-up-sydney-street-courthouse-conversion/

[Itme]

I cant get over the fact that Barbour's store is just sitting there abandoned. Its concerning to me, but could also be perceived as excitement because it kind of tells me that something new is going to be constructed in its place. Anyone have any insight?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Itme

I cant get over the fact that Barbour's store is just sitting there abandoned. Its concerning to me, but could also be perceived as excitement because it kind of tells me that something new is going to be constructed in its place. Anyone have any insight?

It’s going through an insurance job repair. Me personally I wish they’d float it up river to Gagetown where it’s more historically appropriate and put up a Telegraph Square-like building.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

It’s going through an insurance job repair. Me personally I wish they’d float it up river to Gagetown where it’s more historically appropriate and put up a Telegraph Square-like building.

A development like that would be interesting but I would hope it would be combined with an effort to road diet the Union/Water/St.Patrick intersection and make it more pedestrian-friendly. It's a very busy spot in the summer and could definitely use it.

[adamuptownsj]

Ideally this land would be consolidated with the stupid parking garage to its south for future development. Somewhere between the height of City Hall and the Prince William streetscape.

If Saint John builds a visitor information site like they were planning to I will scream. The province shuttered theirs for good reason.

Originally Posted by JHikka

A development like that would be interesting but I would hope it would be combined with an effort to road diet the Union/Water/St.Patrick intersection and make it more pedestrian-friendly. It's a very busy spot in the summer and could definitely use it.

A roundabout would work here, no? You would just have to angle the south end of Chipman Hill and the north end of Prince William a bit. Leave a lane heading south from St Patrick to Water as-is. Plenty of room for it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

A roundabout would work here, no? You would just have to angle the south end of Chipman Hill and the north end of Prince William a bit.

If pedestrianization is the goal then I think a standard intersection works fine - I don't believe roundabouts to be all that great for pedestrians crossing at-grade.. My idea would be to subtract a few lanes between City Hall and Barbour's, increasing the width of the bus stops and centre island, as well as eating up more of the road space on Prince William and King and converting it to sidewalk.

Something like this, although i'm no urban planner or designer by any means:



Absorbing the right turn lane on King would be an option, as well. The buses would take over one of the right turn lanes in front of city hall.

[ColSJ]

I know it’s been said on other threads the media will look at discussions on here to find stories and I think that holds true from todays story in the TJ.

City looking at potential options for Barbour’s

https://tj.news/greater-saint-john/102069154

If you don’t have a subscription the article is basically what the title reads. The city is looking at numerous options and have no additional information to provide.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Ideally this land would be consolidated with the stupid parking garage to its south for future development. Somewhere between the height of City Hall and the Prince William streetscape.

If Saint John builds a visitor information site like they were planning to I will scream. The province shuttered theirs for good reason.



A roundabout would work here, no? You would just have to angle the south end of Chipman Hill and the north end of Prince William a bit. Leave a lane heading south from St Patrick to Water as-is. Plenty of room for it.

This has gone quiet. I was told by very good sources that the building was being taken back by the Barbour family and a new development was going in its place. I just hope the burned out shell isn’t still sitting there for tourist season.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

This has gone quiet. I was told by very good sources that the building was being taken back by the Barbour family and a new development was going in its place. I just hope the burned out shell isn’t still sitting there for tourist season.

I wish not to be too negative here, but it appears we’ll have a gaping hole at the top of King and a huge gravel pit beside Market Square minus the new boardwalk and patio, so it wouldn’t surprise me that the burned out fake store will still remain in its current state through tourist season.

It’s amazing how even with such high demand for housing, some of these uptown projects remain stalled while Moncton is one and a half buildings into their three sisters project which I believe was announced after these.

I wish the powers that be would stop fumbling and get on with it. There is so much potential to remake this entire area for the better.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Helladog

I wish not to be too negative here, but it appears we’ll have a gaping hole at the top of King and a huge gravel pit beside Market Square minus the new boardwalk and patio, so it wouldn’t surprise me that the burned out fake store will still remain in its current state through tourist season.

It’s amazing how even with such high demand for housing, some of these uptown projects remain stalled while Moncton is one and a half buildings into their three sisters project which I believe was announced after these.

I wish the powers that be would stop fumbling and get on with it. There is so much potential to remake this entire area for the better.

Agreed, Moncton is awesome in that respect a building get announced and it seems most times it’s shovels in the ground almost instantly. They have some pretty aggressive developers. In SJ you take anticipated start date, then add 2 or 3 years minimum. However, in the long run Saint John has an ace up it’s sleeve - it rapidly expanded like Moncton in the 1800’s which left us with the second most beautiful and preserved architecture after Quebec City that will never be replicated in an expanding city anywhere. We have more thoughtfully designed buildings that are eventually going up (think Queens Quay designer vs. a Spitfire Special). Our topography and grid layout is unique (like a mini San Francisco). Lastly, and most importantly, people can feel inspired by a sense of history and space - the beauty of Trinity Royal is unmatched even in Halifax. Just using Moncton as an example, can anyone seriously walk down Main St and say “I really feel inspired”? Try walking from the SJ harbour on King, Canterbury, Princess, Orange, through the Squares, Church St, Prince William - you are surrounded by something pretty special. We won’t be the biggest city, but we will certainly be the best.

[cdnguys]

[IMG] how to send a picture from facebook[/IMG]

[MonctonRad]

Excellent pics.

I will take the liberty to repost these in the Canada section (appropriately credited to you).

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If pedestrianization is the goal then I think a standard intersection works fine - I don't believe roundabouts to be all that great for pedestrians crossing at-grade.. My idea would be to subtract a few lanes between City Hall and Barbour's, increasing the width of the bus stops and centre island, as well as eating up more of the road space on Prince William and King and converting it to sidewalk.

Something like this, although i'm no urban planner or designer by any means:

Absorbing the right turn lane on King would be an option, as well. The buses would take over one of the right turn lanes in front of city hall.

I'm partial to removing that lane- people do not seem to understand how two right hand turning lanes work and I am tired of almost getting sideswiped.

I thought a little more and somewhere between your idea and mine would work pretty well. You might be able to get away with more of a road diet but traffic studies would be needed. This would turn the Barbour site into a huge area, which would create more development options.

See here: https://imgur.com/a/3WDywJ7

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by Helladog

I wish not to be too negative here, but it appears we’ll have a gaping hole at the top of King and a huge gravel pit beside Market Square minus the new boardwalk and patio, so it wouldn’t surprise me that the burned out fake store will still remain in its current state through tourist season.

It’s amazing how even with such high demand for housing, some of these uptown projects remain stalled while Moncton is one and a half buildings into their three sisters project which I believe was announced after these.

I wish the powers that be would stop fumbling and get on with it. There is so much potential to remake this entire area for the better.

Are you going off on internal knowledge or is this speculation?

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

Are you going off on internal knowledge or is this speculation?

I'll add my two cents to this discussion.

I don't think we should jump ship just yet on our expectations for the developer. In 2022 when the first opportunity was there to build he did not have a financially viable project ready for construction (that being the office component), yes we can make our arguments about how we feel about that but that's just how it went. We know since then he's been working on revamping the design to remove the office component for apartments. I would rather see a building go up fully leased than have a building go up on our most famous street with big fat For Lease signs staring out the window all day, every day. The business case for this project has only increased since it became an idea, a new k-8 school so its south and a new school to its west at Market Square. Combined with massive population growth according to statscan.

So coming up this spring will be 2 years since the demolition of the two buildings. That's plenty of time to prepare and is also on par with classic SJ development timelines. It is my expectation we will see construction on this site this spring. If my expectations fail then yeah... it's time to turn the page and find an alternative proponent.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

Are you going off on internal knowledge or is this speculation?

Neither, just vocalizing my frustration and impatience. In some way perhaps I believe this will lead to some kind of positive outcome. I truly think these projects will get off the ground soon but with the recent past in mind I’m justified to think a bit negatively.

That said, there are still plenty of great projects going on and I hope these two will join them shortly. The pictures above are great and you make some good points.

[Gnarly]

"What other place can compete with this?"

Wow....just an amazing assortment of restaurants, and bars. Few places in the Maritimes can come close to this selection, many of which are equal to or better than anything you would find in Toronto. Thanks for posting. I love Saint John.

[JakeNB]

Nice pics of the bars and restaurants. But we still have some significant challenges aside from the delayed projects at 99 King and Fundy Quay. Brunswick Square is a gaping hole in the centre of the city without any apparent solution in sight. Neither the owner, the City or Envision seem to be putting any priority on dealing with this blight on our community.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Gnarly

"What other place can compete with this?"

Wow....just an amazing assortment of restaurants, and bars. Few places in the Maritimes can come close to this selection, many of which are equal to or better than anything you would find in Toronto. Thanks for posting. I love Saint John.

I'm a big Saint John booster, more so than most others, but Toronto's food scene is one of the best in the world...

SJ's Uptown food scene is a thousand times better than what it was a decade ago and is only beaten in the Maritimes by Halifax, IMO.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm a big Saint John booster, more so than most others, but Toronto's food scene is one of the best in the world...

SJ's Uptown food scene is a thousand times better than what it was a decade ago and is only beaten in the Maritimes by Halifax, IMO.

Are you referring to the food itself, or spaces? In regards to spaces only, I personally think we top Halifax. The one benefit of the economic doldrums in Saint John in previous decades is that these “brick and beam” buildings were not torn down, leaving us with a national treasure today.