Halifax Stanfield International Airport Developments

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think there's one other airline (EuroWings or something?) doing seasonal Halifax-Frankfurt, in addition to Condor.

Eurowings Discover - it's Lufthansa's leisure travel subsidiary.

Would love to see KLM return with Amsterdam service. Icelandair too.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

YI wouldn't be surprised to see Air Canada add direct Halifax to Europe flights in WestJet's absence

Really? They could have initiated any of those routes themselves long before WestJet even existed, but didn't. Why would you think they'd be interested now?

[someone123]

It is a bit hard to compare as the distance is much greater (a connecting flight out of YHZ is still much "easier" than a direct flight out of YVR) and I'm not sure how to find up to date schedules rather than either the airport-style service charts that may be out of date or just looking at flight booking sites. One thing I notice right now is some of these flights from YVR are $1,500+ one way. There is a direct Frankfurt flight listed for $2,500. As a person looking for semi-reasonable flights at good times it doesn't seem great and there isn't a big difference between only Heathrow and Heathrow plus some other nearby European cities that cost more or are at worse times. Travel within Europe is generally much more convenient and affordable than in Canada. In contrast, JFK has a huge variety of direct flights covering the European continent.

For the long run the question I'd ask is why 2019 was "special" for European service levels, and why 2025 will have lower service even as Canadian cities continue to grow (and Pearson potentially struggles to handle the number of passengers). I think it is probably more likely that we're in an unusual period right now and demand will tend to go up over time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Really? They could have initiated any of those routes themselves long before WestJet even existed, but didn't. Why would you think they'd be interested now?

Competition is one potential reason for better service, all else being equal.

But I'd be careful in looking too far back in the past. The population has grown (major growth in recent years) and disposable incomes have trended upward.

[q12]

From May to October Lufthansa (Eurowings Discover) fly an AIRBUS A330-200 (seats 270) or AIRBUS A330-300 (seats 302) and Condor fly an Boeing 767-300 (seats 259) combined non-stop 6 days a week form Halifax to Frankfurt.

This is significant because this is a near daily flight on a wide-body aircraft to a major European Hub.





Air Canada's daily flight to London Heathrow is siginficant because it's daily and year-round.

The ONLY other cities in Canada that have daily non-stop to europe year round is Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Calgary. Halifax is 5th best Europe connected airport in Canada even with the Westjet cuts.

Ottawa and Winnipeg have no European flights. Edmonton has KLM flying to Amsterdam on only 5x weekly, and Condor 2x weekly to Frankfurt summer seasonal.

We really need more year round non-stop to Europe not Westjet's summer seasonal stuff.

Air Canada is likely to start flying non-stop to Frankfurt once they get A321XLR

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

There are also more subtle problems like - wasn't Halifax just chosen as the site of some new NATO office?

FWIW the European counterpart office is apparently co-hosted in London and Estonia. YHZ does have a direct flight to London and the other offices in Estonia likely don't all have local airports with great service to North America.

This is quite a tangent but I notice on the one hand there are major affordability and transport capacity issues that seem to register, but then on the other people often very quickly revert to the idea that there is a rigid hierarchy of cities and everything has to go in only the top places (not saying you or anybody here is suggesting it, just a general observation). I think part of the "story" behind putting things in Halifax could/should be that Canada ought to develop more capacity and more major cities to get around some of these bottlenecks. Of course, for this to work out Halifax/NS need to gracefully handle the growth.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Really? They could have initiated any of those routes themselves long before WestJet even existed, but didn't. Why would you think they'd be interested now?

Because an absence of competitors would make it a simpler market to capitalize on, and demand is probably greater than in the past, especially with rapid growth in the region. I didn't say it will happen for certain, but that I wouldn't be surprised.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

Competition is one potential reason for better service, all else being equal.

I don't follow the reasoning. There would be no competition for AC should they decide to take up routes abandoned by WestJet.

But I'd be careful in looking too far back in the past. The population has grown (major growth in recent years) and disposable incomes have trended upward.

Putting aside "too far back in the past", AC could have begun those routes anytime in the last decade before WestJet did.

Perhaps they will step in to fill the void (here's hoping!), but their past performance doesn't make it seem likely.

[q12]

Current non-stop routes from Halifax:


https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-halifax-yhz

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I think there's one other airline (EuroWings or something?) doing seasonal Halifax-Frankfurt, in addition to Condor. However both of them are quite a bit more expensive than WestJet or even AC IIRC. In practice they seem more geared towards Europeans who want to vacation in Canada than the opposite. Amsterdam and Gatwick seem like they would be more attractive as hubs (and even destinations) from a Halifax/Maritime perspective. If Halifax really wants to double down on the military/diplomacy niche then Brussels might be a good route to start pushing for. These could be "instead of" somewhere like Paris or Frankfurt (although again I think Frankfurt is thought of more as the point of origin than the destination).

IcelandAir seemed like a great service and it's a shame that it's gone. It would also be nice to see a return of service to/through Chicago as well as service to Denver and one or more of the non-Boston cities in New England.

IMO the most intriguing "new" destination from Halifax is Quebec City.

You can get roundtrip flights to Frankfurt from Halifax with Condor for under $1000. For the dates I looked at AC is much more expensive, and not direct.

I wish Condor still offered a flight to Munich as well.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I don't follow the reasoning. There would be no competition for AC should they decide to take up routes abandoned by WestJet.



Putting aside "too far back in the past", AC could have begun those routes anytime in the last decade before WestJet did.

Perhaps they will step in to fill the void (here's hoping!), but their past performance doesn't make it seem likely.

Lack of competition, I mean—guesswork, but maybe demand for direct Halifax-Europe flights was too low to try and elbow in when WestJet offered them. Now they WestJet is gone, there’s an opportunity to open profitable routes.

As for why AC didn’t do it 15 years ago but would now, the regional market is larger by about 160,000 people, and that growth is accelerating. If WestJet saw a market niche pre-pandemic, it stands to reason it remains and is stronger now. (My hunch is that WestJet’s service changes are less about the profitability of these routes and more about industry pressures and difficulties within the company, though that’s just a guess.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I don't follow the reasoning. There would be no competition for AC should they decide to take up routes abandoned by WestJet.

It was related to my "what was special about 2019" comment. In the long run the service will tend to follow some trend, likely going up a bit over time due to growth. If there's heavy competition there can be extra service for a while then somebody wins and the service level drops again. Airlines engage in predatory pricing sometimes, or simply try out new routes that don't end up being popular enough.

My understanding is that these international routes are more open to foreign competition so it might be less likely for there to be unmet demand along Halifax-London (with a lot of those customers being open to a variety of airports on the European side) vs., say, Halifax-Sydney CB.

[Hali87]

IIRC a lot of the Halifax-Europe routes used the Max8, which is a relatively new aircraft. There have been changes in fuel efficiency and aircraft range over time which can make YHZ more/less attractive depending on which planes each company has available at any given time.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Hali87

IIRC a lot of the Halifax-Europe routes used the Max8, which is a relatively new aircraft. There have been changes in fuel efficiency and aircraft range over time which can make YHZ more/less attractive depending on which planes each company has available at any given time.

Make no mistake about it: without the 737 Max, WestJet's European routes from YHZ would never have existed. It has the range (earlier 737 models didn't) and just the right capacity for this market, and WestJet simply didn't have enough of their heavies (767s, and later 787s) to use here anyway, even if the market could have supported it (which is very doubtful).

Notice that Air Canada, after decades of using the considerably larger 767 on YHZ-LHR, chose not to replace it on retirement with an aircraft of similar capacity (B787, A330) and instead now flies the 737 Max, apparently finding the lesser capacity a better fit.

[q12]

Lufthansa (Eurowings Discover) has recently increased the schedule to 4x weekly this summer and combined with Condor 3x weekly on alternating days will provide Halifax with daily non-stop widebody service to Frankfurt beginning late May.

Lufthansa (Eurowings Discover) is bookable on Air Canada:

Air Canada Halifax to Frankfurt AC 7387 | Operated by EW Discover GmbH
Airbus A330-300
Duration: 6hr40m

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by q12

Lufthansa (Eurowings Discover) has recently increased the schedule to 4x weekly this summer and combined with Condor 3x weekly on alternating days will provide Halifax with daily non-stop widebody service to Frankfurt beginning late May.

Lufthansa (Eurowings Discover) is bookable on Air Canada:

Air Canada Halifax to Frankfurt AC 7387 | Operated by EW Discover GmbH
Airbus A330-300
Duration: 6hr40m

Two days ago I flew Frankfurt to Toronto on Eurowings Discover and I can pass along to you that it was a superior service. We were upgraded to Premium Economy which provided more than generous space and comfort along with warm food and alcholic beverages. Leg room in Economy looked fine for a six foot plus person... certainly better than Air Canada Rouge that a tall guy like me should avoid at any cost.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Better than Air Canada Rouge that a tall guy like me should avoid at any cost.

I got "Rouged" on a connector from Toronto to San Diego about six years ago. I'm not particularly big, but I couldn't move for the entire five hour flight and when I got to San Diego, I was crippled for almost the full week!!

I agree. Avoid Rouge at all costs.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I got "Rouged" on a connector from Toronto to San Diego about six years ago. I'm not particularly big, but I couldn't move for the entire five hour flight and when I got to San Diego, I was crippled for almost the full week!!

...just one of the reasons some people call it "Air Canada Rude".

I agree. Avoid Rouge at all costs.

Unfortunately, avoiding it can be very difficult. It's replaced mainline AC service on many routes.

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I got "Rouged" on a connector from Toronto to San Diego about six years ago. I'm not particularly big, but I couldn't move for the entire five hour flight and when I got to San Diego, I was crippled for almost the full week!!

I agree. Avoid Rouge at all costs.

Moncton to Toronto is going to be all Air Canada Rouge again starting May 1st.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by q12

Moncton to Toronto is going to be all Air Canada Rouge again starting May 1st.

It's also a short flight. I can handle that. Rouge is a bitch for transcontinental however.