The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

First off I find the plausibility of another transportation funding announcement surprising given that two players in the city who would be eligible for this funding are either still under construction from previous funding (PSJ) or fresh out of the gate with new ambitions. (Airport)

That being said I think the airport is most likely. There may have been some left over dollars on the table that Long snatched up when he become aware of the airport ambitions. Plus the whole idea tags along with developing Port Saint John as a critical logistics hub for North Eastern NA. Having the minister of transport come along for the announcement is a big deal. That’s a signal it’s big dollars with big ambitions. And I also can’t help but draw the connection between the fact this announcement will be held at a chamber event who have been funnelling out editorials in the TJ like no tomorrow talking about logistics hubs.

Wayne has been talking about containers going from 350,000 TEUs to 800,000 and only way to do that is where AIM is

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Wayne has been talking about containers going from 350,000 TEUs to 800,000 and only way to do that is where AIM is

I hate to burst the AIM bubble but they aren’t leaving on any one else’s terms.. They’ll be gone once the lease ends or if some random scenario arises that they cannot financially sustain the location.

[adamuptownsj]

I had never seen this proposed 1/7 interchange upgrade before. PDF file.

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depa...s/Rte1-and-Rte7-FileFromMicrostation.pdf

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I had never seen this proposed 1/7 interchange upgrade before. PDF file.

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depa...s/Rte1-and-Rte7-FileFromMicrostation.pdf

Seems kind of unnecessary IMO, especially since the main bottleneck is the highway itself. I know the current interchange has some tight radius turns, but slower speeds are a lot cheaper than the five to ten million this “upgrade” would probably cost.

[OliverD]

Yeah, I'm not sure what problem this design is trying to solve?

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I had never seen this proposed 1/7 interchange upgrade before. PDF file.

https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depa...s/Rte1-and-Rte7-FileFromMicrostation.pdf

I think (could be wrong) it was announced around the same time as the planned 3rd lane on the Mackay from SJ to Rothesay as part of the "Route 1 Gateway Project"... both were removed from the scope of the project around the same time.

[adamuptownsj]

The problem is where 7 (southbound) meets 1- it's an extremely sharp, weird, and lethal turn. That would just be the bottom right proposed modification. IDK what the point of the other two are. Make it easier for trucks heading east from Maine connect to Route 7?

I'd rather see twinning of 7 from where twinning ends today (south of Crane Mountain), to the Colonel Nase offramps. 2.6 miles, would need just two new overpasses and one ramp reconfiguration. Simple upgrade.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The problem is where 7 (southbound) meets 1- it's an extremely sharp, weird, and lethal turn.

Have there actually been fatalities there?

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

First off I find the plausibility of another transportation funding announcement surprising given that two players in the city who would be eligible for this funding are either still under construction from previous funding (PSJ) or fresh out of the gate with new ambitions. (Airport)

That being said I think the airport is most likely. There may have been some left over dollars on the table that Long snatched up when he become aware of the airport ambitions. Plus the whole idea tags along with developing Port Saint John as a critical logistics hub for North Eastern NA. Having the minister of transport come along for the announcement is a big deal. That’s a signal it’s big dollars with big ambitions. And I also can’t help but draw the connection between the fact this announcement will be held at a chamber event who have been funnelling out editorials in the TJ like no tomorrow talking about logistics hubs.

My guess will be rail upgrades. That will take some money and it is not currently funded as far as I know. But, it is really in the provincial and national interests to make that happen. I believe that CP has already put money into it's road in Quebec and Maine. They are ready to move on the Lac Megantic bypass. It's at the point right now where the feds are going to expropriate land owners around Lac Megantic to get that done.

https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/lac-megantic-bypass-land-acquisitions-proving-problematic/

It is unfortunate after what those people have suffered through but it appears the feds are taking this whole initiative seriously and are forcing the issue. I don't know how much of the rest of the CP track from Montreal to Brownville Jct is done but there are obvious upgrades from what I see. I don't think CMQ put much money into that track.

Most of the line from Montreal to Saint John is still a diamond in the rough. The NBSR track from Saint John to Brownville Jct is functional but not much more. It is not up to heavy daily usage. At least the roadbed looks like it has been maintained. Some of the actual rails are probably the same track we used to walk on in Westfield when I was a kid in the 60's. The trains are able to run, but it is not efficient by today's standards. The sectional track is harder on fuel, rolling stock maintenance, efficiency, and safety. It isn't just a speed issue. The old sectional track needs to be upgraded to continuous welded rail and speeds need to be upped. If you want to be part of the international shipping hubs, the expectation from shippers is efficiency to modern standards. That investment would be recouped fairly quickly.

It looks like JDI is getting the early jump on developing a logistics hub on Dever Road. They're kind of dipping their toe in and feeling the environment to see where things go. At least JDI knows the transportation situation inside out and is moving conservatively until things get more locked in. They are currently at the point of peeing off the people who live next to them on Dever Road. Apparently they are waking people up at 3AM with the sounds of switching trains around the yard. I would think that the TJ would be promoting that venture even if they are not directly mentioning it. It's one of those subliminal things that media does when there is a connection.

That doesn't mean there isn't anything going on at the airport, but we really need to get the PSJ ducks in a row first. So unless there is somebody with bottomless bags of cash who has the entire development of this timed and costed out to completion, (what are the chances?) I am going to stick with the rail upgrade and maybe some side dishes.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Seems kind of unnecessary IMO, especially since the main bottleneck is the highway itself. I know the current interchange has some tight radius turns, but slower speeds are a lot cheaper than the five to ten million this “upgrade” would probably cost.

I am a layman when it comes to highway design so just guessing here.

There does seem to be more truck rollovers at high speed highway interchanges wherever tight turns are present. They might foresee higher truck traffic and are trying to reduce the impact of that particular interchange by increasing the turn radiuses and lowering the gradients between the highway levels. I have noticed that major highway interchanges built in the past twenty years allow you to keep highway speeds even though they might recommend 80 km/hr. That is advisable in the worst weather conditions, but in good weather, it's highway speeds all the way through.

On a side note, does anybody know if this reconfiguration might allow easier future rail access to Lorneville?

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Don't they run trains through Rothesay during the dragon boat festival? Passenger rail between the City and Valley would be easily attainable if not for specific stakeholders, as would returned VIA service to Moncton.

Anyway.

Since VIA is independent of any particular railroad, why wouldn't they just take the more efficient route from Montreal to Saint John and all the way through to Halifax? That will be after the track upgrades from Montreal to Saint John are completed.

[ColSJ]

So are you suggesting the funding would be to upgrade rail infrastructure from McAdam to Brownville Junction?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

Since VIA is independent of any particular railroad, why wouldn't they just take the more efficient route from Montreal to Saint John and all the way through to Halifax? That will be after the track upgrades from Montreal to Saint John are completed.

There is that pesky American border to deal with as well as officious customs agents.

I had suggested in the past that VIA should use the more direct CNR mainline from Moncton to Grand Falls and Edmundston rather than the coastal route via Miramichi, Bathurst, Campbellton and the Matapedia, but, apparently, VIA is mandated to keep the existing routing through eastern Quebec.

The CNR mainline is a class one railway, better maintained and more direct and would lop at least 3-4 hours off the trip to Montreal, but, whatever.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

I hate to burst the AIM bubble but they aren’t leaving on any one else’s terms.. They’ll be gone once the lease ends or if some random scenario arises that they cannot financially sustain the location.

According to the videos depicting the port at 800K/yr TEUs, they can accomplish that by filling in the slips with acreage to handle containers, and adding more cranes to load/unload ships faster. DPW have plenty of room in their existing allotments to add cranes. Matthew Leech - CEO, DP World Americas Region stated in the linked video that they would add an additional 1-2 more cranes on top of the 4 existing cranes on the dock currently to get them to 800K.

https://youtu.be/cN7gE4Uc3Qw?t=2383

They will also have to increase the rolling equipment on dock to handle containers. NBSR have been adding rail to the existing Bayshore yard and I assume they will continue to expand that as necessary. That yard has been under utilized for a long time. CP(?) even had an engine maintenance roundhouse on that site decades ago. That was likely in the steam era. Bigger challenges might come at 800K+ but that is another welcome topic. I have to assume they have considered that potential but nothing public yet.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

So are you suggesting the funding would be to upgrade rail infrastructure from McAdam to Brownville Junction?

No. That is in the US and would be owned by the Eastern Maine Railway. Canadian money would only go for projects in NB. EMRY should be eligible to access grants, etc. from US jurisdictions.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is that pesky American border to deal with as well as officious customs agents.

I had suggested in the past that VIA should use the more direct CNR mainline from Moncton to Grand Falls and Edmundston rather than the coastal route via Miramichi, Bathurst, Campbellton and the Matapedia, but, apparently, VIA is mandated to keep the existing routing through eastern Quebec.

The CNR mainline is a class one railway, better maintained and more direct and would lop at least 3-4 hours off the trip to Montreal, but, whatever.

CNR has every opportunity to compete here. I would heartily endorse the CNR if it was the best option. The truth is that this whole opportunity wouldn't exist if the CNR was the best option. Their priority has been Halifax for at least the last 50+ years. You will have to ask the CNR why but my guess might be because CP couldn’t compete there.

Please let us know how you have determined that the CNR is "more direct and would lop at least 3-4 hours off the trip to Montreal, but, whatever." Unless you redefine "direct" I don't see it. If your ststement was true, I would endorse the CNR.

Here’s Dan Bresolin - VP Intermodal, Canadian National Railway minimizing their 200+ mile problem:

https://youtu.be/cN7gE4Uc3Qw?t=1177

A fair amount of uhhhh.... and repeating single syllable words while trying to minimize 200+ miles. If they had it, he would have been telling everybody about it right there.

The CNR mainline is 82 miles as the crow flies in the wrong direction from Saint John. So it is a few more travelled miles than that. Vanceboro, Maine is 82 miles travelled distance. Why travel around the block when you want to go next door?

The CPR is a class one railway. CSX is a class one railway. The CNR is a class one railway. One difference between the three is that the CNR has a long history in Saint John and they have contributed little to the city beyond the services paid for. If I am wrong, let me know what real difference CN makes. They have done little except provide a paid for service that has been just that. That record speaks for itself. What and where are their priorities?

Even so, I would promote the CNR if it was a better option.

The NBSR has survived running a slow regional railroad that could compete with the CNR to wherever freight needed to go. Perhaps speed hasn't been their priority because it hasn't been a deciding factor in the goods they transport or the customers they serve. At least they have kept the line open and provided an alternative for key industries in Saint John. I would bet CN never seriously considered picking up what NBSR started with.

But now the NBSR has direct connections to three class one railroads that see big opportunities. I'm not going to walk around the block when I only want to go next door.

Upgrade the west bound NBSR lines to modern standards. It is unfortunate that that goes in the opposite direction from CN but that was CN’s decision.

I don't really care if another passenger train goes from Montreal to Saint John and beyond. If the rules are that something besides passenger needs determines the service provided, it probably will be found lacking.

Finally, Canada and the US have been each other's biggest $$$ trading partners for a long long time. If that's changed, the fact that we have border control systems to streamline transportation of legal goods hasn't. Border traversal is not a concern and I'm kind of surprised you even bring that up since it has not been a serious issue lately as far as I know.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

Please let us know how you have determined that the CNR is "more direct and would lop at least 3-4 hours off the trip to Montreal, but, whatever." Unless you redefine "direct" I don't see it. If your ststement was true, I would endorse the CNR.

My comment had nothing to do with Saint John.

The CNR mainline from Moncton to Montreal via Grand Falls is faster and more direct than the current VIA routing via the Bay of Chaleur and the Matapedia Valley. That's all I was saying. In addition to be longer, the subdivision between Miramichi and Bathurst is in such poor repair that the train is forced to travel at about 30-40 km/hr along this section.

In terms of reestablishing the old rail passenger service between Saint John and Montreal, I am completely neutral on this topic. My only comment is that you have to cross the international border twice using this routing.

Heck, Amtrak service may be established as far north as Bangor. This is being actively studied. I think it would make more sense to explore an Amtrak service from Boston to Halifax via Saint John (and Moncton).

[cdnguys]

The location of 14 story apartment building at EastPoint now has a construction sign - Orion (which is owned by EastPoint developer Northrup Properties)

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Heck, Amtrak service may be established as far north as Bangor. This is being actively studied. I think it would make more sense to explore an Amtrak service from Boston to Halifax via Saint John (and Moncton).

Now we are talking!!!!

[homebody]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The location of 14 story apartment building at EastPoint now has a construction sign - Orion (which is owned by EastPoint developer Northrup Properties)

This is confirmed to be 14 stories?