Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[big T]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I once saw a map of the EU where they had countries colour-coded based on whether or not the average public opinion was more pro-Israel or more pro-Palestine and it stood out how the eastern countries were pro-Israel while the western countries were either neutral or pro-Palestine. I thought it was interesting but didn't understand why.

Perhaps this is another manifestation of what you're saying.

Interesting take. I remember seeing that same Israel vs Palestine support breakdown, and assumed it was down to the significant ties between Israel and Eastern Europe. Lots of Jews from the region have 'made aliya', and Israel makes the whole process pretty straightforward. Obviously the appeal has been all the greater for Jews looking to leave so-so economic and personal prospects in Eastern Europe.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I dunno about that.

There are more Catalans in Spain than the entire population of a half-dozen or more EU member states. Even if they are EU members, almost all of those independent countries' languages, cultures and identities are a whole lot stronger and secure than is the case for the more numerous Catalans.

Spain level EU/Euro membership involves giving up a lot of autonomy, so separating from Spain with the intent to join as a smaller entity means less than it otherwise would. I wonder how much Catalonia would ever develop distinct national level institutions under the EU that it can't already have.

Plus you're embroiled in the dynamics of that system where basically nobody wants the borders to be re-assessed. A new state could be stuck in a perverse situation where it was in the EU as part of the old state, its population is in favour of remaining, but it is in some kind of accession limbo. People don't talk much about this and you hear that Scotland will just rejoin etc. kind of like how they might cancel and renew their Netflix membership. In Scotland they had their once per generation referendum in 2014 but surprise, the separatists say it is time for another one.

A whole alternate philosophy the EU is following, even if people don't want to say it aloud, is that it is possible to expand freedoms to make it less necessary to worry about where the borders are. Some borders are very important and others are less important.

[MichiganExpress]

The Basque Country in Spain is a very interesting case where they are basically independent, collecting and using taxes as they pleased. Most people thought Catalonia was after an agreement similar to the basque and I think it would have prospered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Economic_Agreement

That is the agreement. Do you guys think something similar could be implemented in Québec?

[kwoldtimer]

edit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

The Basque Country in Spain is a very interesting case where they are basically independent, collecting and using taxes as they pleased. Most people thought Catalonia was after an agreement similar to the basque and I think it would have prospered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Economic_Agreement

That is the agreement. Do you guys think something similar could be implemented in Québec?

Quebec already collects its own taxes (income and sales) and has some tailored taxation arrangements with the Canadian government. This is the case for all Canadian provinces to some degree.

In Quebec you pay both Canadian (federal) and Quebec (provincial) income taxes.

A Canadian province has constitutionally-recognized taxation powers to pay for services and responsibilities in the areas designated for the provinces in the Canadian Constitution.

Not sure how this differs from what is in place in the Basque Country (Euskadi) or what taxation powers the Generalitat (state/provincial government) in Catalonia has.

[MichiganExpress]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec already collects its own taxes (income and sales) and has some tailored taxation arrangements with the Canadian government. This is the case for all Canadian provinces to some degree.

In Quebec you pay both Canadian (federal) and Quebec (provincial) income taxes.

A Canadian province has constitutionally-recognized taxation powers to pay for services and responsibilities in the areas designated for the provinces in the Canadian Constitution.

Not sure how this differs from what is in place in the Basque Country (Euskadi) or what taxation powers the Generalitat (state/provincial government) in Catalonia has.

I didn't know about Québec's situation. Thanks for the clarification.

Le système fiscal espagnol établit que certains pouvoirs sont assumés par l'État et d'autres par les communautés autonomes. Actuellement, il existe un régime commun établi -pour la majorité des communautés-, dans lequel les deux partagent la gestion des impôts, et un autre foral -Navarre et Pays Basque-, qui permet de commander et de gérer tous les impôts des contribuables .

Because of that system, the infrastructure in Catalonia is being neglected - So they say- in favor of Madrid and other poorer regions. That's a problem Basques have been avoiding at large.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Spain level EU/Euro membership involves giving up a lot of autonomy, so separating from Spain with the intent to join as a smaller entity means less than it otherwise would. I wonder how much Catalonia would ever develop distinct national level institutions under the EU that it can't already have.

Plus you're embroiled in the dynamics of that system where basically nobody wants the borders to be re-assessed. A new state could be stuck in a perverse situation where it was in the EU as part of the old state, its population is in favour of remaining, but it is in some kind of accession limbo. People don't talk much about this and you hear that Scotland will just rejoin etc. kind of like how they might cancel and renew their Netflix membership. In Scotland they had their once per generation referendum in 2014 but surprise, the separatists say it is time for another one.

A whole alternate philosophy the EU is following, even if people don't want to say it aloud, is that it is possible to expand freedoms to make it less necessary to worry about where the borders are. Some borders are very important and others are less important.

Obviously EU members will stick up for each other (especially as some have separatist pressures of their own) and won't do the Catalan independence movement any favours. Scotland is of course a different matter because of Brexit now.

That said I do find that Canadians outside Quebec tend to exagggeratedly downplay the importance of national independence, which is ironic given how Canada's independence vis-à-vis the US is so passionately defended in spite of how very subtle the socio-cultural differences are between the two countries.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

I didn't know about Québec's situation. Thanks for the clarification.

Le système fiscal espagnol établit que certains pouvoirs sont assumés par l'État et d'autres par les communautés autonomes. Actuellement, il existe un régime commun établi -pour la majorité des communautés-, dans lequel les deux partagent la gestion des impôts, et un autre foral -Navarre et Pays Basque-, qui permet de commander et de gérer tous les impôts des contribuables .

Because of that system, the infrastructure in Catalonia is being neglected - So they say- in favor of Madrid and other poorer regions. That's a problem Basques have been avoiding at large.

So I gather the Basque government collects all taxes and then pays a "quota" to Madrid for the services that the central government provides in the Basque region.

[MichiganExpress]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So I gather the Basque government collects all taxes and then pays a "quota" to Madrid for the services that the central government provides in the Basque region.

That's right. Right now they're building HSR in the region to link their biggest cities with Madrid and France and all comes out from the quota.

[lio45]

We’re not getting Single Tax Filing unless we vote the Federal Liberals out, that’s been made crystal clear.

(Guessing that’s what the Basque have, more or less.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

We’re not getting Single Tax Filing unless we vote the Federal Liberals out, that’s been made crystal clear.

(Guessing that’s what the Basque have, more or less.)

That's a good point. Single tax filing (only Quebec collecting, but paying an agreed share to the federal government) has been proposed by a number of political parties, but never implemented.

The federal Liberals, who are the Natural Governing Party of Canada so in power most of the time, are against this idea. So it goes nowhere.

[MichiganExpress]

That'd do wonders for Québec but would also set a dangerous precedent, and that's a risk the feds are not going to take.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a good point. Single tax filing (only Quebec collecting, but paying an agreed share to the federal government) has been proposed by a number of political parties, but never implemented.

The federal Liberals, who are the Natural Governing Party of Canada so in power most of the time, are against this idea. So it goes nowhere.

The Liberals would be fine with single tax filing if the federal government were doing the collecting.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

That'd do wonders for Québec but would also set a dangerous precedent, and that's a risk the feds are not going to take.

I think it’s inevitable if the next election returns a Conservative minority dependent on the Bloc.p

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

That'd do wonders for Québec but would also set a dangerous precedent, and that's a risk the feds are not going to take.

Not sure what it would bring to Quebec in terms of positives, really.

Yes, it's something that most Quebec governments would go for, but I think that transferring tax points (points d'impôt) would have more of an impact.

What is meant by the points issue is that Ottawa would not longer tax for program or responsibility X, and Quebec would take over both that responsibility plus the taxation space to collect revenue for it. The impact on taxpayers would in theory be neutral.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

The Basque Country in Spain is a very interesting case where they are basically independent, collecting and using taxes as they pleased. Most people thought Catalonia was after an agreement similar to the basque and I think it would have prospered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Economic_Agreement

That is the agreement. Do you guys think something similar could be implemented in Québec?

In many ways the Spanish Basque Country is far more integrated with the rest of Spain than Québec with the rest of Canada. Moving to the Basque Country from the rest of Spain is easy: same language spoken, same social system, same mostly everything really. 17.5% of the inhabitants of the Basque Country were born in the rest of Spain (2021 census). In comparison at the 2001 census only 3.8% of the residents of Québec were born in the rest of Canada, and the percentage has probably not changed much since then.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In many ways the Spanish Basque Country is far more integrated with the rest of Spain than Québec with the rest of Canada. Moving to the Basque Country from the rest of Spain is easy: same language spoken, same social system, same mostly everything really. 17.5% of the inhabitants of the Basque Country were born in the rest of Spain (2021 census). In comparison at the 2001 census only 3.8% of the residents of Québec were born in the rest of Canada, and the percentage has probably not changed much since then.

Yeah, I even believe that only about 25% of the population of the Basque Country can actually speak Basque. In Quebec, over 80% of the population are native first language francophones, and about 95% of the entire population can speak French either as a first or second language.

The situation with Catalan is a bit better in Catalonia (than in Euskadi) as there I think that native speaker numbers and language knowledge numbers are quite a bit higher (50-60%?), though still subtantially lower than in Quebec.

I wouldn't trade places with either of them.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MichiganExpress

That'd do wonders for Québec but would also set a dangerous precedent, and that's a risk the feds are not going to take.

Not sure why its dangerous. The feds already collect provincial income taxes in the ROC on behalf of the provincial governments. I don't see how Quebec collecting federal income taxes on behalf of the federal government is any different.

[kwoldtimer]

Golden Rule - he who holds the gold makes the rules.

[New Brisavoine]

Meanwhile in France...

Fin janvier, dans le somptueux Hôtel de la Marine à Paris, c’est un Ben Smith assuré et souriant qui présente ses vœux au nom d’Air France-KLM. Dans un français impeccable, le directeur général de la compagnie montre sa confiance: «Notre activité en 2023 va être quasiment au même niveau qu’en 2019», affirme-t-il. Rien à voir avec le Ben Smith emprunté et hésitant dans la langue de Molière lors du même exercice, début 2020. Car si le Canadien a pris la tête du groupe en septembre 2018, c’est à l’épreuve de la pandémie qu’il s’est vraiment révélé.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fra...-fruits-de-la-methode-ben-smith-20230216