Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But sure it would be interesting to know what his views on Corsica or the Basque country are.

My views are very simple: the door is wide open for those who want to leave. The country is not a prison. France would be better off if Corsica, Martinique and Guadeloupe left. But they'll never leave because they are just whiners who live off money sent from Paris.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

My views are very simple: the door is wide open for those who want to leave. The country is not a prison. France would be better off if Corsica, Martinique and Guadeloupe left. But they'll never leave because they are just whiners who live off money sent from Paris.

How about St. Pierre et Miquelon? Newfoundland would be pleased to take them off your hands.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

How about St. Pierre et Miquelon? Newfoundland would be pleased to take them off your hands.

Oh yes then we will teach them Acadian and Quebecois French.
“Bienvenue au Canada. Dès aujourd’hui, vous allez plutôt parler le français canadien. Nous allons nous foutre de la France.”

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I mean, we don't know much about New Brisavoine. Maybe they have a bunch of friends in Quebec who inform their interests? It's all good if they advocate for Quebec separatism - at the end of the day they don't get a vote for or against, the same way I don't get a vote for Scottish independence (for which I would vote yes!).

It could also be that he doesn’t quite grasp the finer details of the subject, in a Ségolène Royal kind of way. Not sure if that’s New Brisavoine’s case, because he seems be more knowledgeable than this, but I’ve met quite a few French who saw the Quebec sovereignty matter as a monolithic anglos vs francos, black and white thing, and as a francophone I would automatically hate anglos and be pro-separation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

How about St. Pierre et Miquelon? Newfoundland would be pleased to take them off your hands.

The St Pierrais and Miquelonais cannot stand the Canadians for what your government did to them in the 1980s and early 1990s.

CANADA : après l'arraisonnement du chalutier Croix-de-Lorraine Quatre personnalités de Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon sont incarcérées à Terre-Neuve

https://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/...erees-a-terre-neuve_4101263_1819218.html

Fishing Dispute Strains Paris-Ottawa Relations

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/18/world...wa-relations.html?searchResultPosition=2

[lio45]

Originally Posted by le calmar

... but I’ve met quite a few French who saw the Quebec sovereignty matter as a monolithic anglos vs francos, black and white thing, and as a francophone I would automatically hate anglos and be pro-separation.

Anyone who thinks about this for a few seconds will realize that it can't be the case, otherwise independence would have already happened a long time ago.

It would be like a Westerner thinking, for example, that all Ukrainians are pro-Russian and would like to join Russia if possible.

It's a valid hypothesis at first sight (i.e. it COULD be the case), but it does not stand the test of compatibility with observable current events.

[dleung]

"All" statements are red herrings

If 49% of Quebecers and 39% of France support Quebec separation, then it's mainly a francophone thing. If only 10% of France supports separation, then it's mainly a Quebec thing.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

But they'll never leave because they are just whiners who live off money sent from...

Ottawa?

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by lio45

Anyone who thinks about this for a few seconds will realize that it can't be the case, otherwise independence would have already happened a long time ago.

It would be like a Westerner thinking, for example, that all Ukrainians are pro-Russian and would like to join Russia if possible.

It's a valid hypothesis at first sight (i.e. it COULD be the case), but it does not stand the test of compatibility with observable current events.

I did meet my fair share of French people who honestly thought this was the case, but I suspect they were simply lacking in the critical thinking department. Most were aware of the complexity of the subject.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm the opposite, I would never dare to help break up someone else's country (Scotland and Catalonia), while when it's my own, it feels perfectly normal that I'm getting a say.

However, I am consistent: if a majority of Scots and Catalans support independence -- without me encouraging them to -- then my favorite scenario is for their wish to be granted. By the exact same logic, I am in favor of Ireland existing as a separate entity (for ~100 years now).

I'd use the same logic for the Bretons, even though it would feel reeeeally strange to have one tip of the Hexagon cut off. But if they really want to go, they should be able to.

On these issues, we seem to be in agreement.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I did meet my fair share of French people who honestly thought this was the case, but I suspect they were simply lacking in the critical thinking department. Most were aware of the complexity of the subject.

The French are generally supportive of the independence of Québec, just as the British are generally supportive of the unity of Canada (and dismissive of Québecois nationalists, see for example the super biased articles in The Economist). But that being said, most also don't care all that much about the issue as it's not something that concerns them on a day to day basis.

Also, what I've always found funny: the French tend to think of Canada as primarily a French-speaking country (a bit the same way they view Africa as primarily French-speaking), whereas the British tend to view it as essentially English-speaking.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

It could also be that he doesn’t quite grasp the finer details of the subject, in a Ségolène Royal kind of way. Not sure if that’s New Brisavoine’s case, because he seems be more knowledgeable than this, but I’ve met quite a few French who saw the Quebec sovereignty matter as a monolithic anglos vs francos, black and white thing, and as a francophone I would automatically hate anglos and be pro-separation.

It's also not uncommon to meet people in France who have "romantic" notions of Quebec independence and the Québécois "cause" in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joUeMoDDcYM&list=RDjoUeMoDDcYM&start_radio=1

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

How about St. Pierre et Miquelon? Newfoundland would be pleased to take them off your hands.

Newfoundland would?

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Also, what I've always found funny: the French tend to think of Canada as primarily a French-speaking country (a bit the same way they view Africa as primarily French-speaking), whereas the British tend to view it as essentially English-speaking.

Maybe that’s because I was hanging with some strange persons, but I also did meet people in France who were surprised I spoke French at all. For some reason they assumed French in Quebec was something like French in Louisiana where only a few old people could speak it. But we’re not exactly talking about the intellectual type of interlocutor here.

And true, I’ve seen many French tourists in non-francophone African countries try to interact with the locals in French, with interesting results

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Newfoundland would?

Well, SHH at least has a love affair with St. Pierre.

[someone123]

The default is to have a Google Maps level view of faraway countries and adopt black and white thinking about their politics instead of accepting that one does not have enough basis to generate an informed opinion. I'm not sure who falls into this camp but "Quebec should obviously separate because it's French" is a standard ultra low information opinion. In general in the West we have cultural sympathies toward underdogs, this is a path toward liking separatists, and it is relatively easy to construct narratives of oppression and struggle that resonate. In traditional Russian culture and a lot of old empires I get the impression it's the opposite (I can't believe the peasants in that shithole think they are a real country). And often people flip-flip between these views based on their interests and perspective (a lot of Canadians in Ontario and points to the west will be anti-Quebec separatist and pro-Catalan or Scotland or whatever, and can even have a kind of vestigial imperialist attitude toward the eastern end of the country in general).

I think a dominating factor with separatism is that it often doesn't make sense in areas with modern democratic institutions. It has almost no meaning within the EU for example. It makes sense for a country like Poland in the Eastern Bloc where people can decide if they want the Russian track development or European track. Brexit was sort of notionally coherent on a very rough level but didn't make a lot of sense and is/was a bad process.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Maybe that’s because I was hanging with some strange persons, but I also did meet people in France who were surprised I spoke French at all. For some reason they assumed French in Quebec was something like French in Louisiana where only a few old people could speak it. But we’re not exactly talking about the intellectual type of interlocutor here.

I think people in France, especially working-classes, are well acquainted with the French Canadians since the TV show 'Surprises sur prise' and the quaint accent of Marcel Béliveau, that everyone older than, say, 30-35 surely remembers in France.

• Video Link

And 'Emilie la passion d'une vie' was one of the most popular series on French TV (when I was a kid we would have dinner earlier the day of the week 'Emilie la passion d'une vie' was on TV so we could watch it all at ease; I remember thinking as a kid "what impossibly snowy and cold winters these people have..." ).

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think people in France, especially working-classes, are well acquainted with the French Canadians since the TV show 'Surprises sur prise' and the quaint accent of Marcel Béliveau, that everyone older than, say, 30-35 surely remembers in France.

• Video Link

And 'Emilie la passion d'une vie' was one of the most popular series on French TV (when I was a kid we would have dinner earlier the day of the week 'Emilie la passion d'une vie' was on TV so we could watch it all at ease; I remember thinking as a kid "what impossibly snowy and cold winters these people have..." ).

• Video Link

There may be some outliers such as those that Le Calmar met, but I think that it's much more common in France for less informed people to think that the demographics of Canada as a whole are like the demographics of Quebec, ie mostly francophone with some anglophones here and there.

If think about it, the vast majority of "Canadians" an average French person will know in terms of celebrities and other personalities, are going to be francophones.

Yes, the average French person may also know Canadians like Jim Carrey and Justin Bieber, but they will often assume that they're Americans. Or even if they know they're Canadian, the details will be fuzzy in their minds.

Whereas no one in France mistakes these people above or Céline Dion or Robert Charlebois for an American.

To 99% of people in France, a "Canadian accent" is a francophone Canadian accent.

Not this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTd-oLBTlr4

And not even this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvQFVewyz0U

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

In general in the West we have cultural sympathies toward underdogs, this is a path toward liking separatists, and it is relatively easy to construct narratives of oppression and struggle that resonate. In traditional Russian culture and a lot of old empires I get the impression it's the opposite (I can't believe the peasants in that shithole think they are a real country). And often people flip-flip between these views based on their interests and perspective.

I've noticed this too about Slavic cultures in general. They often have little sympathy for the underdog and tend to side with the "winners" or who they consider to be strongest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think a dominating factor with separatism is that it often doesn't make sense in areas with modern democratic institutions. It has almost no meaning within the EU for example. It makes sense for a country like Poland in the Eastern Bloc where people can decide if they want the Russian track development or European track. Brexit was sort of notionally coherent on a very rough level but didn't make a lot of sense and is/was a bad process.

I dunno about that.

There are more Catalans in Spain than the entire population of a half-dozen or more EU member states. Even if they are EU members, almost all of those independent countries' languages, cultures and identities are a whole lot stronger and secure than is the case for the more numerous Catalans.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've noticed this too about Slavic cultures in general. They often have little sympathy for the underdog and tend to side with the "winners" or who they consider to be strongest.

I once saw a map of the EU where they had countries colour-coded based on whether or not the average public opinion was more pro-Israel or more pro-Palestine and it stood out how the eastern countries were pro-Israel while the western countries were either neutral or pro-Palestine. I thought it was interesting but didn't understand why.

Perhaps this is another manifestation of what you're saying.