HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Downtown & City of Hamilton


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #5441  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 5:10 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by LikeHamilton View Post
From Forge & Foster



Catherine and King William and was the site of the old police station torn down in the early 80's. Club 77 building (old Spec garage) is across Catherine Street.
excellent.

The parking crater north of downtown is now basically entirely accounted for in terms of development, with one key exception - the entire block bounded by John, Wilson, Hughson, and Rebecca.

I continue to be very concerned by the significant drop in commercial parking availability downtown over the next decade, and the City's complete lack of planned response.

The LRT will mitigate it to a certain extent, but generally the downtown could have a real issue on it's hands in a few years if we don't start seeing more structured commercial parking open. There are very limited options right now.

if the city had half a brain, they would be looking to build a new structure in the downtown area... the municipal lot between Mary and Walnut would be a good spot.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5442  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 5:32 PM
ShavedParmesanCheese's Avatar
ShavedParmesanCheese ShavedParmesanCheese is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 369
What if...



...you didn't drive?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5443  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 5:46 PM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
excellent.

The parking crater north of downtown is now basically entirely accounted for in terms of development, with one key exception - the entire block bounded by John, Wilson, Hughson, and Rebecca.

I continue to be very concerned by the significant drop in commercial parking availability downtown over the next decade, and the City's complete lack of planned response.

The LRT will mitigate it to a certain extent, but generally the downtown could have a real issue on it's hands in a few years if we don't start seeing more structured commercial parking open. There are very limited options right now.

if the city had half a brain, they would be looking to build a new structure in the downtown area... the municipal lot between Mary and Walnut would be a good spot.
The city had a committee of some sort looking at parking in the downtown and future needs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5444  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 6:39 PM
Hawrylyshyn's Avatar
Hawrylyshyn Hawrylyshyn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese View Post
What if...



...you didn't drive?

What if...

... you didn't live in fantasy where no one needs cars.

There will always be a need for them, and parking, to some degree.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5445  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 6:52 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn View Post
What if...

... you didn't live in fantasy where no one needs cars.

There will always be a need for them, and parking, to some degree.
There will always be parking, but having less of it will just encourage people to not drive if they don't have to rather than doing it out of convenience. We own a car, and live downtown, but only use it when leaving downtown because it's inconvenient to drive and park compared to walking or cycling. Less parking won't kill a city with historically way to much parking for far too cheap.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5446  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 7:30 PM
PaperSun PaperSun is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 147
So that will be Lambs third project in Hamilton I believe

Last edited by PaperSun; Feb 14, 2023 at 10:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5447  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 7:45 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,909
yea - I acknowledge over the long term that downtown won't need as much parking as it has now, but the need isn't going to go away. Hamilton isn't Toronto, it doesn't have super amazing regional connections. Lots of people come into downtown from areas that aren't on the LRT and will need somewhere to park.

Ultimately though there will remain a significant demand for parking in Downtown, and that won't be able to be accommodated entirely within Jackson Square's garage. There is very, very little structured, commercially operated parking downtown right now - Jackson Square and the Convention Centre.. and that's about it.

I believe Cobalt will have some commercial parking, but generally we are looking at probably several thousand spaces in he downtown being redeveloped in the next decade. It's great news to see those surface lots gone, but people still need a way to access the downtown.

Even Toronto with some of the best transit on the continent has commercial parking garages all over the downtown. Hamilton doesn't, and if the City isn't looking to make sure that it happens, we could end up with some issues in a decade or two.

Doesn't need to be subsidized, it can be expensive, but we need to make sure people can access the downtown.

The right solution will likely be a new city garage, perhaps as I mentioned in the Intarnational Village, and a scattering of smaller commercial garages integrated into new development, like I believe is occurring with Cobalt.

Toronto puts municipal parking garages in private developments all the time, the City should be calling Green P and getting advice from them on how the negotiate that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5448  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2023, 11:18 PM
Fruitloops Fruitloops is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 166
Agree with Innsertnamehere. With all the building going on downtown if they want it to thrive the city has to end their war on cars and incentivize people to travel there. Businesses will not be supported by bike lanes or LRT. If you want my money for an event, restaurant or to buy downtown you must make it easy , safe and efficient for me to part with my money. I want to drive in my car and will go to where i can do that. Its getting harder to go downtown now god knows what the next few years will bring. Its easier to go to Burlington than to chance the traffic and sh$tshow that is downtown.

Our stewards of the city are like a quilt with all their agendas and hard ons for their folks who mostly didnt vote for them. Time to look after the city as a whole.

The choice is thrive or dive?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5449  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 12:44 AM
onetimetoomany onetimetoomany is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitloops View Post
Agree with Innsertnamehere. With all the building going on downtown if they want it to thrive the city has to end their war on cars and incentivize people to travel there. Businesses will not be supported by bike lanes or LRT. If you want my money for an event, restaurant or to buy downtown you must make it easy , safe and efficient for me to part with my money. I want to drive in my car and will go to where i can do that. Its getting harder to go downtown now god knows what the next few years will bring. Its easier to go to Burlington than to chance the traffic and sh$tshow that is downtown.

Our stewards of the city are like a quilt with all their agendas and hard ons for their folks who mostly didnt vote for them. Time to look after the city as a whole.

The choice is thrive or dive?
Ultimately the addition of these new towers will result in built in customers for nearby businesses. Those that choose to drive most certainly can but it won’t be of convenience; which is how most cities operate.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5450  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 12:59 AM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,055
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5451  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 1:25 AM
TheHonestMaple's Avatar
TheHonestMaple TheHonestMaple is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,833
Those articles you referenced are talking about London UK, Portland and Toronto. Those cities are way denser with an already massive public transport network. Hamilton is not that, not yet. Not even close. The vast majority of shoppers to the downtown core arrive by vehicle. You can't dispute that. I hope that changes in the coming decades, but right now Hamilton is very car dominant.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5452  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:02 AM
Crapht Crapht is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 360
There is no war on cars and if there is it is a civil war. I find the people who complain most about traffic and parking are the people who drive everywhere. It’s not a fantasy to imagine riding a bicycle or taking public transit once or twice a week. It’s insane to believe drivers deserve easy access to dominate the public realm and all will be fine. The density being built downtown is creating the environment needed to support local businesses without having to drive. Most of the traffic is people drive through the city. They are not spending their money in the core.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5453  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:07 AM
Corktowner Corktowner is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetimetoomany View Post
Ultimately the addition of these new towers will result in built in customers for nearby businesses. Those that choose to drive most certainly can but it won’t be of convenience; which is how most cities operate.
This is a crucial point that I think some people in this thread aren't quite grasping: all of these parking spots are being replaced by people. Design District, for example, is replacing 200 parking spots with 900 apartments that will be home to well over 1,000 people. All of those people will live within walking distance of everything downtown. If you're concerned about downtown businesses having enough customers to thrive, I think it's pretty clear which is the better option.

If people from elsewhere want to drive into downtown and are prepared to pay full market value for the privilege of doing so, then someone will build a parking garage to serve them. I don't understand why the municipal government needs to be involved in this in any capacity.

Also, as Hamilton grows and densifies—and especially once the LRT is built—we'll hopefully start to see more and more commercial vibrancy in other parts of the city like King East, Main West, Barton, Ottawa, even places that are hard to imagine today like Kenilworth. So you might not even want to go downtown so much because there will be lots of interesting bars and restaurants and whatnot closer to where you live. Think of Queen West or College or Roncesvalles or the Danforth in Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5454  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:52 AM
ScreamingViking's Avatar
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,515
It also gets to a point where those who can afford it prefer to take a ride service. Especially if going out for a night on the town. Weighed against paying more for parking or time spent hunting for a space, it's an even easier choice.

They may not do it for shopping, but may drive if there's something downtown they cannot get anywhere else.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5455  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:57 AM
ScreamingViking's Avatar
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corktowner View Post
Also, as Hamilton grows and densifies—and especially once the LRT is built—we'll hopefully start to see more and more commercial vibrancy in other parts of the city like King East, Main West, Barton, Ottawa, even places that are hard to imagine today like Kenilworth. So you might not even want to go downtown so much because there will be lots of interesting bars and restaurants and whatnot closer to where you live. Think of Queen West or College or Roncesvalles or the Danforth in Toronto.
Kenilworth used to have a fair amount of commercial activity, even into the 1970s and early '80s. At some point, it will revive.

Ottawa has always been a "shopping district" but it's gone from being THE destination for fabrics and draperies and such to having a much broader array of stores and restaurants. Between Main and Cannon that's lacking a bit, but there are still older homes on that stretch... I can envision that changing over time especially if more condos or apartments are built near the corner of Main.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5456  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 4:19 AM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
Those articles you referenced are talking about London UK, Portland and Toronto. Those cities are way denser with an already massive public transport network. Hamilton is not that, not yet. Not even close. The vast majority of shoppers to the downtown core arrive by vehicle. You can't dispute that. I hope that changes in the coming decades, but right now Hamilton is very car dominant.
I can and will dispute that. I actually love downtown unlike a lot of y'all, and I can tell you right now, much if not most of the businesses downtown survive on regular customers that live in the central city that get to downtown without a car because they live nearby.

When downtown has 100,000 people for super crawl and the entire downtown has maybe 4000 parking spots, how do y'all think people are getting there? Even if people are parking a distance and walking, that will still continue. I live near West Harbour and see droves of people walk past my house to get to the Toronto Rock via Go. Car brain makes people forget the insane inefficiency of automobiles. A Go Train can hold 2000 people. These condo buildings can hold thousands of customers, and LRT trains can hold 400 people each every 4 minutes. Sidewalks and bicycle lanes can handle thousands or tens of thousands of people per lane per hour.

Many, many people arrive by cars, and will continue to, and that's fine, but fears that downtown Hamilton will die because of the removal of 80 parking spots that sit empty 75% of the time is a straight up joke. Like... A. Joke.

Studies of other cities are relavent because Hamilton isn't special, and Hamilton exceptionalism is also stupid. Many mid-sized cities of similar density have a very similar situation where they see a vast portion of their customers via active transportation.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5457  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:11 PM
TheHonestMaple's Avatar
TheHonestMaple TheHonestMaple is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRitsman View Post
I can and will dispute that. I actually love downtown unlike a lot of y'all, and I can tell you right now, much if not most of the businesses downtown survive on regular customers that live in the central city that get to downtown without a car because they live nearby.

When downtown has 100,000 people for super crawl and the entire downtown has maybe 4000 parking spots, how do y'all think people are getting there? Even if people are parking a distance and walking, that will still continue. I live near West Harbour and see droves of people walk past my house to get to the Toronto Rock via Go. Car brain makes people forget the insane inefficiency of automobiles. A Go Train can hold 2000 people. These condo buildings can hold thousands of customers, and LRT trains can hold 400 people each every 4 minutes. Sidewalks and bicycle lanes can handle thousands or tens of thousands of people per lane per hour.

Many, many people arrive by cars, and will continue to, and that's fine, but fears that downtown Hamilton will die because of the removal of 80 parking spots that sit empty 75% of the time is a straight up joke. Like... A. Joke.

Studies of other cities are relavent because Hamilton isn't special, and Hamilton exceptionalism is also stupid. Many mid-sized cities of similar density have a very similar situation where they see a vast portion of their customers via active transportation.
lol I don't think anyone here hates downtown Hamilton. Most of us live downtown....

It's just that comparing Hamilton to London UK or even Toronto for that matter is a bit.... disingenuous. We don't have the transport infrastructure or density to achieve a very walkable downtown right now. I think that's changing rapidly though, downtown is going to be a very different place in even 5 years. But many of the shops and restaurants downtown presently rely on people from the suburbs and even surrounding cities, and they get here by car.

I do believe though that once all the parking lots around Rebecca Park start getting filled in with condos, together with all the other builds - we're going to see a serious shift. I'm not arguing against that.

But referencing the UK and trying to say Hamilton is similar - yaaaa no. I wish though
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5458  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:28 PM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 216
We definetely have the density to support a walkable core. There is an illusion that this is not the case because of the car-orientedness of downtown that has killed retail for decades and a lack of new residents to frequent the IMMEDIATE core. We’re just late to a party that all of Ontario is already in on. Despite everything that has happened here, Hamilton is still one of (maybe still 4th?) the densest downtowns in Canada. The lower city is easily the densest “inner city” outside of Toronto in Ontario, and likely still 4th in Canada. The issue is that the pedestrian environment has been decimated downtown for the last 50 years, so it doesn’t look or feel like any of this density is really there. But, it is, and the city is slowly re-growing into the built form it once had by adding people downtown.

Parking is certainly part of this mix, but the need for car-oriented infrastructure is overstated- we are building lots of parking in new developments, and I think it’s perhaps too much. Our downtown was rebuilt for cars, and so it reflects that in its current form. Toronto is in many ways just a larger Hamilton that has gone through the changes we are set to experience. The reality is there are a lot more people in the immediate vicinity of downtown who do not need to drive to get there compared to the people willing to commute in. People who visit downtown Toronto, namely in the old city, do not drive. And the same is and will continue to be true here, and that hinges on actual proximity, not just transit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5459  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 2:59 PM
Corktowner Corktowner is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 79
Honestly, when Hamiltonians start talking about parking I sometimes feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I've lived in a half-dozen Canadian cities, and Hamilton has by far the cheapest, easiest, and most plentiful parking—and it also has one of the most moribund downtowns. I can't even imagine how anyone could look at Hamilton and conclude, "The problem we need to worry about here is a looming parking shortage."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5460  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2023, 3:19 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corktowner View Post
Honestly, when Hamiltonians start talking about parking I sometimes feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I've lived in a half-dozen Canadian cities, and Hamilton has by far the cheapest, easiest, and most plentiful parking—and it also has one of the most moribund downtowns. I can't even imagine how anyone could look at Hamilton and conclude, "The problem we need to worry about here is a looming parking shortage."
There won't be problems if we lose a few lots, that's not the concern.

The concern is that Downtown Hamilton has basically 0 commercial parking structures, and Hamilton just sold one of the few that do exist. That combined with the the rapid scale of intensification now coming into the downtown will eliminate the majority of parking in the downtown. Many areas of downtown are entirely serviced by surface parking lots right now.

That's a terrible thing that absolutely needs to be fixed, and thankfully is.

My concern is that as we move from downtown Hamilton being a giant parking crater to one with basically no surface parking, and this is happening very, very quickly right now, the problem may become the opposite. Instead of there being way too much parking, there will be none at all. And that reality seems to be coming increasingly rapidly, with another surface lot being sold off for development every few months. All of these new developments may have parking garages, sure, but they are mostly for building residents and are not available for the general public.

All I'm saying is that we have to be careful to ensure that in 10-15 years once all these lots are developed we aren't left with a downtown with no commercial parking around.

We don't need thousands of new spots, we don't need to make sure lost surface lots are replaced 1 for 1 with new underground spots - we just need to make sure that there are actually going to be some options to park in the core in 15 years when every surface lot is developed.

Again - even Toronto is chock full of commercial garages all across the downtown, even with 80-90% of people accessing the downtown using transit. Hamilton will never achieve an 80% modal share, no matter how hard it tries - even if we get up to a 60-70% active modal share, which would be a great achievement, we will still need places for people to put their vehicles.

It's not a problem now, but if every surface lot develops as I hope they do, it will be a problem. the solution can be a few commercial garages integrated into development like Cobalt is doing, plus maybe a new municipal garage or two around. It doesn't need to be new mega-garages with thousands of new spaces.

That's it. It's about finding balance. We absolutely want to encourage other modes, but we need to acknowledge that Hamilton as a mid-sized city in the North American context will need some level of commercial parking availability. That doesn't mean we want everyone to drive downtown, that doesn't mean we should be offering dirt cheap parking in the city, it just means that we need to ensure that some level of parking is actually available for people. Like it or not businesses make decisions on this kind of thing, companies don't move offices to locations they don't think staff can access, etc.

In my office, located in downtown Hamilton, about 30% of staff do not live in the City of Hamilton and do not have the ability to take transit to the office, for example. No matter how much we make transit good in Hamilton, no matter how many bike lanes we put in, etc. - these people simply cannot and will never be able to access downtown without a car. That's a reality. We don't need people driving from the Delta, or even perhaps from Stoney Creek, but we can't realistically expect people who live in Guelph, Brantford, Caledonia, etc. to be accessing the downtown with non-automotive forms.

Last edited by Innsertnamehere; Feb 15, 2023 at 3:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Hamilton > Downtown & City of Hamilton
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:24 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.