Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but precisely, those who would have left have already left. Only the diehards have remained, and these won't leave easily. Of course the recently arrived transplants will leave, but I have a hard time imagining that the Anglophones born in Québec, or who have lived most of their lives in Québec, will leave just like that.

I don't think there's a ton of value in discussing these sorts of what-if moments from events that happened 30-50 years ago but in the event that Quebec ever separated and things like federal Canadian government jobs, corporate jobs, or places like McGill/Concordia became irrelevant in their new country then Anglophones would absolutely vacate. I have a very difficult time imagining a scenario where McGill retains its current prestige whilst changing countries.

We already have evidence of this in the 1970s and 1980s which points towards corporations and people quickly leaving once things even appear to be going south. It would almost certainly happen again. To say nothing of how Quebec brands would be treated/boycotted in Canada, however briefly or thoroughly.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In other news, Québec once again has the lowest jobless rate in the country.

1.3% lower than Ontario.

Consider that this had never happened in Canadian history before a couple of years ago, and now it's maintaining itself with some consistency.

Why isn't the GDP per capita rising above Ontario and the rest of Canada then? Québec is still lagging significantly behind Ontario, BC, even Saskatchewan, and just barely ahead of Manitoba.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It's tempting to compare Barcelona within Catalonia within Spain to Montreal within Quebec within Canada. By almost complete coincidence, the population numbers almost completely match up:

Metropolis of 4.5 million within a linguistic minority province of 7-8 million within a country of 35-40 million. Both cities are the clear second city of their country, despite being of the country's second language, and the primate cities are about the same size and, therefore, the same relative size to Montreal/Barcelona.

Here are a few stats that by coincidence I compiled some weeks ago.

The results of the 2021 Spanish and Canadian censuses are now out, and we have an international definition of metro areas (used by Eurostat and OECD) that allows a like-for-like comparison of Barcelona and Montréal (in a nutshell, these international metro areas are defined as a central core + a commuter belt where more than 15% of residents in employment commute to the central core; these international metro areas, called FUAs, are larger than Statcan's CMA).

So here is the population of the metro areas (FUAs) in Jan. 2021:
- Barcelona: 5,070,000
- Montréal: 4,646,000

Population growth of the metro areas between 2011 and 2021:
- Barcelona: +3.5% (i.e. +0.35% per year)
- Montréal: +9.7% (i.e. +0.93% per year)

GDP of the metro areas in 2019 (last year before Covid), at market exchange rates:
- Barcelona: 177 billion USD
- Montréal: 185 billion USD

Real growth (i.e. inflation deducted) of the GDP between 2008 (beginning of the 2008-2009 global recession) and 2019:
- Barcelona: +9.8% (i.e. +0.8% per year)
- Montréal: +25.6% (i.e. +1.9% per year)

And compared to Canadian peers:

GDP of the metro areas (FUAs) in 2007 (in billion Canadian dollars):
1- Toronto-Oshawa: 312
2- Montréal: 162
3- Vancouver: 107
4- Calgary: 96
5- Edmonton: 85
6- Ottawa-Gatineau: 63
7- Winnipeg: 33
8- Québec City: 33

GDP of the metro areas (FUAs) in 2019 (in billion Canadian dollars):
1- Toronto-Oshawa: 462
2- Montréal: 245
3- Vancouver: 166
4- Calgary: 129
5- Edmonton: 116
6- Ottawa-Gatineau: 95
7- Québec City: 51
8- Winnipeg: 49

Nominal growth (i.e. inflation included) of the GDP from 2008 to 2019:
- Vancouver: +55.1%
- Québec City: +53.5%
- Montréal: +50.8%
- Ottawa-Gatineau: +50.2%
- Toronto-Oshawa: +48.0%
- Winnipeg: +46.5%
- Edmonton: +35.6%
- Calgary: +34.5%

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Why isn't the GDP per capita rising above Ontario and the rest of Canada then? Québec is still lagging significantly behind Ontario, BC, even Saskatchewan, and just barely ahead of Manitoba.

It's one thing that takes time to catch up on. Quebec and especially francophone Quebec has almost no old money which is what often "seeds" and propels GDP due to capitalisation.

[Acajack]

Evil guy Richard Martineau quoting an Angus Reid poll on racism.

Let's see how the evil racist Québécois compare to other Canadians.

% of people who answered YES that some races are superior to others:

Île-du-Prince-Édouard : 19 %
Nouveau-Brunswick : 16 %
Ontario, Saskatchewan et Manitoba : 14 %
Nouvelle-Écosse : 13 %
Colombie-Britannique : 12 %
Québec : 9 %
Terre-Neuve : 8 %
Moyenne nationale : 12 %


Also asked: Is Canada a racist country?

Highest % of people saying yes: SK at 44%

Lowest % of people saying yes: QC at 22%


They also have data on racial superiority sentiment broken down by demographics.

Here are the % of each demographic who say some races are superior to others.

Visible minorities are most likely to believe that racial superiority exists, at 18%.

White (Caucasian) people are least likely to think that, at 11%.

Indigenous Canadians are somewhere in the middle.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As you say, the economy isn't the point of independence (or not).

If it was, Canada might not be independent from the United States.

In other news, Québec once again has the lowest jobless rate in the country.

1.3% lower than Ontario.

Consider that this had never happened in Canadian history before a couple of years ago, and now it's maintaining itself with some consistency.

There really isn't any unemployment anywhere but the worker/labour shortage is worse in Quebec than anywhere else in North America. My area has a pretty big shortage but a recent wave of immigrants has helped a lot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There really isn't any unemployment anywhere but the worker/labour shortage is worse in Quebec than anywhere else in North America. My area has a pretty big shortage but a recent wave of immigrants has helped a lot.

Yes, but I'd still say Québec is doing better or at least as well as most places in the ROC.

I know you are not a Québec basher at all but I often like to bring up how unemployment figures instantly became a bad and meaningless economic metric as soon as Québec got the lowest ones in the country.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, but I'd still say Québec is doing better or at least as well as most places in the ROC.

I know you are not a Québec basher at all but I often like to bring up how unemployment figures instantly became a bad and meaningless economic metric as soon as Québec got the lowest ones in the country.

Basically, when unemployement is higher in Québec, it is because "Québec sucks at managing an economy", when unemployement is lower it is because "Québec sucks at attracting skilled immigrants which creates a worker shortage".

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. This is why Québec cares less and less about what the ROC thinks.

[GreaterMontréal]

I think Quebec has good economic stats all around. Since January 2022

Labor force + 151k
Employment + 196k

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, but I'd still say Québec is doing better or at least as well as most places in the ROC.

I know you are not a Québec basher at all but I often like to bring up how unemployment figures instantly became a bad and meaningless economic metric as soon as Québec got the lowest ones in the country.

The economic performance of Quebec has been nothing short of impressive over the last 20 years. But the worker shortage is pretty bad.

What bothers me is how it has made much of the province a less fun place to be. I can no longer go to Rouyn-Noranda for late night dinner and drinks like before. So many businesses have drastically reduced hours. It has happened in my city with some places as well but in Rouyn for example it's much worse. I was in Quebec City last year and couldn't find anywhere to go out after 8pm. That was quite a shock. And seeing fast food restaurants closed for supper and closed on weekends on busy highways was also a surprise.

[MolsonExport]

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Basically, when unemployement is higher in Québec, it is because "Québec sucks at managing an economy", when unemployement is lower it is because "Québec sucks at attracting skilled immigrants which creates a worker shortage".

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. This is why Québec cares less and less about what the ROC thinks.

Welcome in France's shoes! It's exactly the same, whatever we do. Anglo media will always spin negatively. They have never swallowed William the Conqueror, triumphant Catholicism and Louis XIV really.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The economic performance of Quebec has been nothing short of impressive over the last 20 years. But the worker shortage is pretty bad.

What bothers me is how it has made much of the province a less fun place to be. I can no longer go to Rouyn-Noranda for late night dinner and drinks like before. So many businesses have drastically reduced hours. It has happened in my city with some places as well but in Rouyn for example it's much worse. I was in Quebec City last year and couldn't find anywhere to go out after 8pm. That was quite a shock. And seeing fast food restaurants closed for supper and closed on weekends on busy highways was also a surprise.

Doesn't that reinforce the case for independence? Within Canada, Québec can never hope to retain its immigrants, they will always be tempted to move to Toronto or Alberta. If Québec was an independent country, immigrants would have nowhere else to go, and would be forced to stay in Québec, just as immigrants in Norway have to stay in Norway and cannot move to London.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Welcome in France's shoes! It's exactly the same, whatever we do. Anglo media will always spin negatively. They have never swallowed William the Conqueror, triumphant Catholicism and Louis XIV really.

As they say, "haters are gonna hate". These people will always exist.

What is even worse though, are all the denials that this actually happens.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Doesn't that reinforce the case for independence? Within Canada, Québec can never hope to retain its immigrants, they will always be tempted to move to Toronto or Alberta. If Québec was an independent country, immigrants would have nowhere else to go, and would be forced to stay in Québec, just as immigrants in Norway have to stay in Norway and cannot move to London.

You're making a pretty heavy assumption that an independent Quebec would attract as many immigrants (in order to retain them) than the Province of Quebec currently retains (somewhere along the lines of 80-85% 5-year retention, which I think safely debunks your statement that Quebec can never hope to retain its immigrants while part of the federation). An equally bold assumption would be that an independent Quebec would attract far less newcomers than it currently retains as perhaps it would appear less attractive to some.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/221212/t001b-eng.htm

[New Brisavoine]

Then what are you guys complaining about, labor shortages and whatnot?

PS: I have a hard time seeing how an independent Québec would be less attractive than a province of Quebec. If an independent Iceland, small and isolated in the middle of the northern Atlantic with the most awful climate in the world, can attract tons of immigrants as they do, then surely it's no issue for an independent Québec.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Then what are you guys complaining about, labor shortages and whatnot?

PS: I have a hard time seeing how an independent Québec would be less attractive than a province of Quebec. If an independent Iceland, small and isolated in the middle of the northern Atlantic with the most awful climate in the world, can attract tons of immigrants as they do, then surely it's no issue for an independent Québec.

The issue currently is that there are far more vacant jobs than Quebec can hope to fill with its current government-fixed economic immigration quotas. This is a pan-Canadian issue, but tends to be more pronounced in Quebec which is reluctant to increase its rates of economic immigration (which it alone controls), particularly as the rest of Canada doubles down on increased immigration to fill worker shortages.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Then raise salaries. Surely if waiters in Québec are paid 50% more than in the ROC, then all the waiters from the ROC will flock to Québec.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Welcome in France's shoes! It's exactly the same, whatever we do. Anglo media will always spin negatively. They have never swallowed William the Conqueror, triumphant Catholicism and Louis XIV really.

Wasn't King Arthur legend kind of a rip off of Charlemagne?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Zeej

particularly as the rest of Canada doubles down on increased immigration to fill worker shortages.

To fill a worker shortage or an inferiority complex facing other G7 counties (particularly the United States) ?