Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

FirstOntario in Hamilton:

.

It’s good the way they curtained off the upper deck entirely. BC place does a mediocre job of curtaining off the second level.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Bulldogs did look at CAA in Brampton, where the Women's Worlds will be in a few weeks, before deciding on Brantford.

I think if they were to go to Brampton, it would be more of signal they aren't coming back, especially if they were successful there. If not in Hamilton (and no idea why Mountain Arena didn't work out for them, assuming they tried), Brantford is the best option for the Hamilton fanbase, there are probably fans on the Mountain who can get to Brantford easier than to FOC.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

I did actually see mention of that on social media... along with some suggestions that, as you mentioned, the Bulldogs may be out of Hamilton for good.

What I'm not clear on is why would the Bulldogs leave Hamilton for good, as some are suggesting? Especially considering they will have a renovated arena with more of those irresistible Revenue Generating Opportunities™ throughout, which is something the rink in Brantford could never hope to match.

I get that it's awkward to skip town for a few years (is there seriously nowhere else they could play in or around Hamilton?!), but it's hard to believe they would vacate Hamilton altogether. You would think some other team, whether OHL, AHL or even ECHL, would swoop in pretty quickly. It's too lucrative of a market to leave untapped.

Edit: I read the article and the more I think about it, the more it looks like Andlauer is using Brantford as leverage in his negotiations with Hamilton, which doesn't appear to be treating him too well. That's not to say that he wouldn't move the team to Brantford, but I get the impression that would be a plan B, if he can't work out a satisfactory deal in Hamilton.

I don't know if the OHL, AHL, and ECHL can attract enough people to those irresistible revenue generating opportunities to make up the difference. You don't usually go through a three year renovation to offer the same contracts to tenants. I don't think the goal is a state of the art major league facilities to fill with minor league teams either.

[Hackslack]

Quebec City did

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Quebec City did

Quebec City's intent was to build the Videotron Centre in order to attract version two of the NHL Nordiques.

If you build it, they will come.

Unfortunately, Bettman's response was "fuck off", so, now the Remparts have the fanciest digs in the CHL.

[blueandgoldguy]

The renovations for Hamilton's arena cost a fraction of what would be needed to be considered an NHL venue so that's out of the equation. If Hamilton fails to have an AHL/OHL team and/or an NLL team as primary tenants, spending all that money on renos is rather silly. They won't be drawing that many more concerts with Toronto a short drive away.

[ericmacm]

I agree that the "if you build it, they will come" approach doesn't really work anymore in the modern sport environment of market research, business cases, and league stability. Both HUPEG and OVG are both being very careful not to directly market this as an attempt to attract an NHL team. The key marketing point for FirstOntario is being an overflow/secondary/alternative venue for Scotiabank Arena, which is reaching its maximum booking capacity between the Leafs (plus occasional Marlies), Raptors (plus occasional 905), and various other events/concerts.

However, bringing the arena up to modern standards will be good for attracting tenants regardless of if the NHL cares or not. This is going to be a nice space - HUPEG is committing at least $100M into FirstOntario, which is going to be matched by OVG. The OHL and CEBL will come back without a shred of doubt in my mind. The AHL, ECHL, and maybe even the NLL again also would be great options and would certainly be interested in occupying a cheaper premium space close to Toronto.

I will say though - Hamilton is on a massive upswing. Its image is greatly improving and there is an incredible amount of development in the pipeline. The newly renovated arena and accompanying entertainment district, plus the LRT, increased GO access, and the emergence of more money in the GTA is going to create a very palatable landing spot for an NHL team, even moreso than Quebec City. I firmly believe Hamilton will be Canada's eighth team when the time finally comes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Unfortunately, Bettman's response was "fuck off", so, now the Remparts have the fanciest digs in the CHL.

Quebec City built Videotron without a guarantee from the NHL that there would be a team for them. It's on Quebec.

Originally Posted by ericmacm

However, bringing the arena up to modern standards will be good for attracting tenants regardless of if the NHL cares or not. This is going to be a nice space - HUPEG is committing at least $100M into FirstOntario, which is going to be matched by OVG. The OHL and CEBL will come back without a shred of doubt in my mind. The AHL, ECHL, and maybe even the NLL again also would be great options and would certainly be interested in occupying a cheaper premium space close to Toronto.

This would also go for national and international events for curling, figure skating, hockey, etc. Hamilton hasn't been the destination for sports tourism that it has the potential to be outside of the occasional Pan-Am Games hosting. Couldn't tell you the last time they held a major Canadian or international championship in something. Renos to FO should surely help with that.

[Djeffery]

I don't know if the secret plan in Hamilton is with the goal of getting an NHL team or not. But if they do manage to snag one however many years from now, they will 100% say this was the plan in mind from the start, but they just had to keep it on the very down low (like Winnipeg).

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

The renovations for Hamilton's arena cost a fraction of what would be needed to be considered an NHL venue so that's out of the equation. If Hamilton fails to have an AHL/OHL team and/or an NLL team as primary tenants, spending all that money on renos is rather silly. They won't be drawing that many more concerts with Toronto a short drive away.

The point is these renos will be failure if an AHL/OHL team(s) is/are the lead tenants and OVG will be fleecing taxpayers to recoup their $100 million investment plus $200 million more. This is what they do and they are extremely well versed at it. These teams can't afford market rates for a premium facility.

I'm going to go on a limb and probably end up silly. This league has an attendance record and presumably pricing not much greater than a minor league hockey team in Ontario. That creates opportunity that the team may not be good enough for the ACC. The name however has lots of cache. I'm talking about the WNBA.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't know if the secret plan in Hamilton is with the goal of getting an NHL team or not. But if they do manage to snag one however many years from now, they will 100% say this was the plan in mind from the start, but they just had to keep it on the very down low (like Winnipeg).

I think the “low profile slow creep” method is absolutely what they’re doing here. For Winnipeg, Canada Life Centre was built in 2004 and TNSE didn’t acquire the Thrashers until 2011. HSG is now a thing and is slowly accumulating corporate and private investment so the sports business infrastructure is already there, albeit small. They would need larger investors to accumulate enough funds to pay for a team, but there seems to be no shortage of parties interested in owning an NHL team in Ontario, given that there are eight groups looking to buy the Ottawa Senators.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

How much is this reno for Hamilton, and who is paying for it?

https://arenadigest.com/2022/06/17/firstontario-centre-renovations-unveiled/

Renovations to FirstOntario Centre, once projected as an NHL venue and most recently the OHL’s Hamilton Bulldogs, will commence next spring as the 1985 arena becomes the centerpiece of new entertainment district.

The former Cops Coliseum will undergo a privately financed facelift. The arena isn’t being downsized, with hockey capacity remaining at approximately 17,500, but virtually every other part of the arena experience is being overhauled. The work will include widened concourses, a new exterior façade, upgraded street access with new lounges, a new roof with higher live load capabilities, new locker rooms, Some 80,000 square feet in storage space will be converted to public spaces like restaurants and club spaces.

The C$500-million renovation will be privately financed by the Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group LP (HUPEG), a consortium of investors, development partners and venue operators. The conversion and subsequent management will be led by the new Canadian division of Oak View Group. From the Globe and Mail:

The overall redevelopment plan aims for a live-work-play experience similar to Toronto’s Distillery District and Maple Leaf Square (aka Jurassic Park), Edmonton’s Ice District and L.A. Live in Los Angeles, says Jasper Kujavsky, director of the arena renovation project and a HUPEG founding partner.

The arena has “good bones,” Mr. Kujavsky says, and is situated close to downtown hotels, restaurants, shops and public transit, including the future Light Rail Transit system.

https://arenadigest.com/2022/06/17/firstontario-centre-renovations-unveiled/

OVG in the US is led by Tim Leiweke, former CEO and President of MLSE, with the Canadian division of Oak View Group being led by another former MLSE figure, Tom Pistore. Leiweke founded OVG with Irving Azoff who is the manager for The Eagles, Jon Bon Jovi, and Steely Dan. They have a corporate partnership with Canada Basketball to help them seek sponsors.

https://www.tsn.ca/leiweke-s-oak-view-group-opens-canadian-office-1.1810419

As Westhead points out in that TSN article, concerts can generate twice as much profit than an NHL or NBA games in an arena the size of FirstOntario because there's more dates available.

I'm leaning more to OHL/NLL tenant, or even none at all for a time, with concerts leading the way for the redeveloped building.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

However, bringing the arena up to modern standards will be good for attracting tenants regardless of if the NHL cares or not. This is going to be a nice space - HUPEG is committing at least $100M into FirstOntario, which is going to be matched by OVG. The OHL and CEBL will come back without a shred of doubt in my mind. The AHL, ECHL, and maybe even the NLL again also would be great options and would certainly be interested in occupying a cheaper premium space close to Toronto.

I agree, even if the Bulldogs and Rock leave and never come back, some other combination of OHL, NLL, AHL, ECHL and possibly WNBA teams will come back to fill the vacuum. A newly renovated large scale facility in a major city that is a stone's throw from an even bigger city will be too much to pass up. Unlike with the NHL, it is not that hard to find a team in those other leagues as there are typically always at least a few that are struggling and/or on the market.

[king10]

Double post.

[king10]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

The renovations for Hamilton's arena cost a fraction of what would be needed to be considered an NHL venue so that's out of the equation. If Hamilton fails to have an AHL/OHL team and/or an NLL team as primary tenants, spending all that money on renos is rather silly. They won't be drawing that many more concerts with Toronto a short drive away.

The reno is being 100% funded by private funds including Tim Leiweke’s Oak View Group. It will also be operated by the private sector. They have big plans for the arena to be a secondary major entertainment venue to Scotiabank Arena.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Surprised nobody has mentioned (for esquire's intrigue!) that the OHL Hamilton Bulldogs are leaving FirstOntario Centre due to renovations and will land in Brantford in the fall.

The Bulldogs have no lease in Hamilton for the future and are not guaranteed to be returning to the market once FirstOntario has been reno'd.

This still the design they are going for?


https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...ated-firstontario-centre-might-look.html

Originally Posted by esquire

I did actually see mention of that on social media... along with some suggestions that, as you mentioned, the Bulldogs may be out of Hamilton for good.

What I'm not clear on is why would the Bulldogs leave Hamilton for good, as some are suggesting? Especially considering they will have a renovated arena with more of those irresistible Revenue Generating Opportunities™ throughout, which is something the rink in Brantford could never hope to match.

I get that it's awkward to skip town for a few years (is there seriously nowhere else they could play in or around Hamilton?!), but it's hard to believe they would vacate Hamilton altogether. You would think some other team, whether OHL, AHL or even ECHL, would swoop in pretty quickly. It's too lucrative of a market to leave untapped.

Edit: I read the article and the more I think about it, the more it looks like Andlauer is using Brantford as leverage in his negotiations with Hamilton, which doesn't appear to be treating him too well. That's not to say that he wouldn't move the team to Brantford, but I get the impression that would be a plan B, if he can't work out a satisfactory deal in Hamilton.

Andlauer is a front runner to buy the Sens. Could we expect some problems with him if he does? I can't see the City of Ottawa or any level of Government sink a single cent into a new arena at LeBreton.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

This still the design they are going for?


https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilton-re...ated-firstontario-centre-might-look.html

As far as we know, yes. These renderings are a few years old, however, and also predate OVG involvement (I believe these first became public when HUPEG was bidding on the contract) so it is highly likely that the designs have changed since then.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

As far as we know, yes. These renderings are a few years old, however, and also predate OVG involvement (I believe these first became public when HUPEG was bidding on the contract) so it is highly likely that the designs have changed since then.

I hope the design will change. The rendering looks interesting, but the execution could easily be botched. Even if it was built as shown, I think the design would age poorly.

I prefer arenas that seamlessly blend into the urban fabric, like Winnipeg, Detroit and Columbus.

• Video Link

[Coldrsx]

Columbus is hard to argue with and was the model, along L.A. Live, for Rogers Place in Edmonton.

Calgary arena er, event centre talks resume today with some heavy political hitters behind it to help push it over the finish line.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

As far as we know, yes. These renderings are a few years old, however, and also predate OVG involvement (I believe these first became public when HUPEG was bidding on the contract) so it is highly likely that the designs have changed since then.

I kind of prefer one of the earlier mockups



It's boxy, but depending on the materials used - it could look cool. The other render still gives me a dated 80s feel.