Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

Well Air Canada can shove it. Now we’re waiting for XLRs? Empty promises. If Halifax without public servants could fill 737-800s to LHR, CDG, GLA and DUB, surely Ottawa could fill one to somewhere. Just one we ask. No. Air Canada has made it clear that Ottawa is an afterthought. And by the way, service to Ottawa from YUL and YYZ is mediocre at best as the schedule looks great but they are always ALWAYS delayed. Even before the pandemic. Especially to YUL.
I used to take long connections through YUL and YYZ because if I took a normal connection then I was sure to miss my connecting flight. And this is well before Covid. What a convenient excuse it has become. Covid just made it that much worse if that were possible.
I will give my business to Air France any day even if they are more expensive.

THIS

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's a benefit to be sure when you're cutting transfers. I'm wondering how competitive they'll be against AC through YYZ on the same destinations.

I played around with some destinations yesterday for about 30 minutes. Here are my anecdotal findings. Disclaimer: It obviously varies on destination and days you're looking for, but I found a trend.

If going direct O&D to Paris, prices are extremely comparable across the board, no matter when you're looking for. Maybe a $30 difference but I'm not sure if that's even worth mentioning.

If connecting beyond CDG, the comparison ratio to YUL and YYZ's offerings starts getting a little unstable. If you're looking for July or August, it may be a $200 difference, give or take depending on the destination and days you're looking at. However, for people like myself who want to avoid AC, YUL, and YYZ, I will gladly pay that difference to use AF. Outside of July or August the prices become very comparable to AC and the offerings at YUL and YYZ. Like down to the dollar comparable in some situations. Mind you, I had both Google flights and AF's website open and I was going back and forth since the AF YOW-CDG was still not searchable on Google flights. Now it is though so comparing will be easier.

This is actually fantastic. I was being a pessimist by thinking it might be a $400 or $500 difference across the board because there is no competition in YOW for this, but I was wrong! Would love to hear if anyone found out anything else, or even anything different for that matter.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

Well Air Canada can shove it. Now we’re waiting for XLRs? Empty promises. If Halifax without public servants could fill 737-800s to LHR, CDG, GLA and DUB, surely Ottawa could fill one to somewhere.

Range is really pushing it from Ottawa with the Max 8 unfortunately. Especially with a full load and winter winds. That's why I expect if AC actually wanted to compete from YOW, they'd wait for the XLR. I fully expect at least a daily XLR to LHR when they receive that fleet. Maybe CDG if they want to take on Air France directly, or BRU or FRA or MUC if they want to compete more indirectly.

TBH, I'm not entirely confident AF would stay if AC launched daily LHR and FRA or MUC. But for now, good on them for capitalizing on the lack of competition.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Range is really pushing it from Ottawa with the Max 8 unfortunately. Especially with a full load and winter winds. That's why I expect if AC actually wanted to compete from YOW, they'd wait for the XLR. I fully expect at least a daily XLR to LHR when they receive that fleet. Maybe CDG if they want to take on Air France directly, or BRU or FRA or MUC if they want to compete more indirectly.

TBH, I'm not entirely confident AF would stay is AC launched daily LHR and FRA or MUC. But his now, good on them for capitalizing on the lack of competition.

I don't think AC will try for CDG. AF to CDG is way more usable with all the possible easy connections. They will definitely do LHR, maybe even 2x daily? They were ready to upgrade the aircraft pre-pandemic so that may be a possibility. FRA is another for sure as an important Star Alliance hub. Other than that, I have no hopes for AC in the slightest. They want to cater to YYZ and YUL and will continue wanting to feed those airports. I hope I'm wrong though. They have said they can't justify wide body operations from YOW, well now's their chance to put their money where their mouth is.

[Truenorth00]

No way AC will ever do double daily from YOW to LHR. Think of what those slots cost. It's a waste to them to put on an XLR when they can put a 400 seat 77W from Toronto.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 58 - including 12 sun flights - interestingly WS1276 to MCO is leaving today out of gate 3. I have never seen anything bigger than an E75 leaving from 3. The airport must have reconfigured that gate to handle code C aircraft.

Today’s cancellation count (so far): 3

[solo748]

Great news for YOW.

1. There is a 0% chance AC starts TATL from YOW to any city other than LHR
2. AF service will require a healthy mix of govt/business travel and ottawa residents getting off their wallets. eg, the DINK couple making 250K combined, driving BMW 3 series are expected to drop $3500+ each to fly long haul vs scrubbing the web for $950 fares to BCN mid week, shoulder season
3. the typical mentality of the insufferable cilly servants chasing aeronplan points and big swinging dck status has to change. YOW needs them in AF. AC is banking on the MLL and aeroplan chasers choosing YYZ over CDG for cnx points. And if they do, all the anger here at AC needs to be shifted to your fellow travellers, not AC, not YOW, not AF
4. it's great to have the aspire lounge - I'm sure AF will comp access for their biz PAX ex YOW
5. Airlines do not cancel profitable flying. Period. AF will be the only game in town for eastbound intl flying ex YOW. Gives them a real chance to get their foothold in. I'm sure YOW is throwing lots of cheap (free) advertising into this. And good for them. Can't wait and be AC's btch indefinitely


There is strong O/D between Ottawa cachment area and Paris. That, and if we get #2 and 3 above, will ensure this service is viable. I actually think they'll add frequencies in S24, and reduce to 3x in winter.

[acottawa]

A business model dependent on consumers doing things not in their interest does not seem sustainable.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 69, including 12 sun flights - however, one WG departure is a delay since 1630 yesterday, yikes!

Today’s cancellation count (so far): 1

[YOWflier]

The structure for Porter’s hangar has started going up.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A business model dependent on consumers doing things not in their interest does not seem sustainable.

The whole buy a worse product out of loyalty is hard to understand.

AF will sink or swim based on their value proposition. Convenience but also price.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The whole buy a worse product out of loyalty is hard to understand.

AF will sink or swim based on their value proposition. Convenience but also price.

In terms of price, playing around with Google Flights will show that depending on final destination, AF is actually cheaper than AC with well timed layovers. Other times, the layovers are quite long, so I’m still trying to figure out if AF accommodates for those itineraries or not.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The whole buy a worse product out of loyalty is hard to understand.

AF will sink or swim based on their value proposition. Convenience but also price.

In what way is it worse?

Ottawa area folks who’ve been complaining about (lack of) overseas options will need to put their money where their mouths have been now that we have a chance with a legit blue chip airline. They should not expect miracle pricing. It’ll be better sometimes and worse sometimes and a wash sometimes.

Btw are you in Ottawa area?

[solo748]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The whole buy a worse product out of loyalty is hard to understand.

AF will sink or swim based on their value proposition. Convenience but also price.

Speaking of hard to understand, Are you saying AF will "swim" if they are aggressive on prices in this thin market?

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

In terms of price, playing around with Google Flights will show that depending on final destination, AF is actually cheaper than AC with well timed layovers. Other times, the layovers are quite long, so I’m still trying to figure out if AF accommodates for those itineraries or not.

Prices fluctuate every day. Might be a better use of your time to look at the destinations this new service provides a HUGE improvement on trip time and convenience. CPT, BLR, BOM? spring to mind.

The M$ question is, Will the folks in Ottawa travelling to said destinations (or Paris, itself) pay a premium for the far better travel experience?

[VaskoYOW]

Just booked on the inaugural flight YOW-CDG-SOF. I’ve always had positive experiences flying with AF. For once I wouldn’t be taking the AF bus to YUL! I have no problem paying premium, IF I have to fly from YOW direct. Also, I doubt AF will have problems filling up their plane (224 pax). AC’s 67 to LHR were 211pax not much of a difference.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by solo748

Speaking of hard to understand, Are you saying AF will "swim" if they are aggressive on prices in this thin market?

I don't think we know how aggressive they need to be to fill those flights. It seems for now they have set a price for Paris and they will see how full that ends up before trying to fill the seats based on whatever routes they have from Paris with room that would also be of interest in Ottawa. A weekend in Paris is nice and all with a direct flight but to be really useful competitive priced connections would be nice.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by solo748

Prices fluctuate every day. Might be a better use of your time to look at the destinations this new service provides a HUGE improvement on trip time and convenience. CPT, BLR, BOM? spring to mind.

The M$ question is, Will the folks in Ottawa travelling to said destinations (or Paris, itself) pay a premium for the far better travel experience?

I’m probably the last person in the city you need to sell this to. Funny you mention BLR because I had a trip booked on AC for later this year YOW-YYZ-FRA-BLR that I happily returned and booked AF YOW-CDG-BLR. Shaved a stop and 5 hours off my journey.

That’s a $13K biz ticket gone bye bye from AC to AF. Had they brought back YOW-FRA the decision would have been much more interesting.

When I talk about people clamouring I’m referring not just to some on here but more so folks in my sphere who’ve been quite vocal especially recently about lack of TATL options. Same dudes never flew via FRA/LHR on their own dime when we had them because “expensive” but have no problem religiously going to pubs 2-3 nights a week (year-round) in their German vehicles and dropping $50 per visit on wings and beer.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

In what way is it worse?

Ottawa area folks who’ve been complaining about (lack of) overseas options will need to put their money where their mouths have been now that we have a chance with a legit blue chip airline. They should not expect miracle pricing. It’ll be better sometimes and worse sometimes and a wash sometimes.

It's been worthwhile for AF to run a coach bus to YUL with presumably enough seats for 40-50 pax. So we know there's at least that many passengers. That's a base to build on. And I expect, if this service is successful, they'll cut the bus transfer.

I dunno about business pax who get J paid for, but I'm going to assume for the majority, travel time and fare are the biggest concerns, not the quality of the lie-flat. But as you say this is a big test for the business community. They aren't getting pods. But they are getting a better connection.

For everybody else, Air France 330-200 has a better seat width and average pitch than Air Canada 787s. Also, the 2-3-2 layout is way better than 3-3-3 on AC 787s or 3-4-3 on AC 777s. And the catering is at a level that Air Canada would absolutely never consider for Economy Class. Anybody choosing AC for aeroplan points deserves the subpar service they chose and paid for.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by solo748

Prices fluctuate every day. Might be a better use of your time to look at the destinations this new service provides a HUGE improvement on trip time and convenience. CPT, BLR, BOM? spring to mind.

Yep. AF's network in Europe, Asia and Africa from CDG beats the pants off anything AC offers through YYZ and YUL. I don't even think AC can compete with Air France at Heathrow, despite the codeshare and Interline agreements. Like YOWflier points out it would have to be an AC or LH flight to Frankfurt. Or a BA flight to Heathrow.

AC would is only competitive on this side to northeast Asia. And maybe to London itself and some Star Alliance hub cities. And that's a big maybe.