VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rbt

The Alberta government promised that route to TransPod. I'm not sure the current government would accept a VIA service in that corridor even if the federal government fully funded the project.

So, if the federal government came and said they were going to use the new Siemens Chargers or, allow the Alstom bid for HSR that the current provincial government would try and block it from happening?

[rbt]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, if the federal government came and said they were going to use the new Siemens Chargers or, allow the Alstom bid for HSR that the current provincial government would try and block it from happening?

Pure speculation on my part, but I believe the UCP government would try to block it. The Transpod proposal is under the Alberta's Railway Act and a private company with $550m in secured investment, all achieved during UCP rule. An Alberta NDP government would be more inclined to accept the gift.

Also, without an interprovincial component it's also kinda outside Federal jurisdiction unless the province requests it. Federal infrastructure funding typically has some fairly broad strings but provinces can apply those funds how they like to any project meeting the goals/strings. I think UCP would argue those funds should be available for any public transit project in Alberta and that partially designed local transit projects in Calgary/Edmonton are their priorities: I believe federal courts would agree. If feds insist on it being inter-city, UCP would try to gift the money directly to Transpod as their already chosen contractor.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rbt

Pure speculation on my part, but I believe the currently elected government would try to block it. The Transpod proposal is under the Alberta's Railway Act and a private company with $550m in secured investment. An Alberta NDP government would be more inclined to accept the gift.

Also, without an interprovincial component it's also outside Federal jurisdiction unless the province requests it. Federal infrastructure funding typically has some fairly broad strings but provinces can apply those funds how they like to any project meeting the goals/strings. I think UCP would argue those funds should be available for any public transit project in Alberta and that other projects in Calgary/Edmonton are their priorities: I believe federal courts would agree. Either that, or UCP would try to gift the money directly to Transpod.

If it connected to the existing Canadian service, why would not not fall under federal jursdiction?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by rbt

Pure speculation on my part, but I believe the UCP government would try to block it. The Transpod proposal is under the Alberta's Railway Act and a private company with $550m in secured investment, all achieved during UCP rule. An Alberta NDP government would be more inclined to accept the gift.

Also, without an interprovincial component it's also kinda outside Federal jurisdiction unless the province requests it. Federal infrastructure funding typically has some fairly broad strings but provinces can apply those funds how they like to any project meeting the goals/strings. I think UCP would argue those funds should be available for any public transit project in Alberta and that partially designed local transit projects in Calgary/Edmonton are their priorities: I believe federal courts would agree. If feds insist on it being inter-city, UCP would try to gift the money directly to Transpod as their already chosen contractor.

Would Doug Ford refuse Federal involvement to extend HFR to Windsor because it would be an Ontario only project? I hope not.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Would Doug Ford refuse Federal involvement to extend HFR to Windsor because it would be an Ontario only project? I hope not.

Doug is a terrible example seeing as he firmly rejected federal funding for various LRT projects (federal MPs were quite interested in various GTA LRT projects, particularly Waterfront Toronto proposals) and managed to back the feds into funding the Ontario Line package in exchange for a restart of Hamilton LRT.

If Doug tasked Metrolinx with designing an HSR line between Toronto and Collingwood (ignoring Windsor because there is an existing federal service on that route) and the Feds came forward with an alternative proposal, Doug would absolutely demand the feds partner with them to fund the Metrolinx proposal and otherwise keep their fingers out of it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rbt

Doug is a terrible example seeing as he rejected federal funding for various LRT projects (federal Liberals were quite interested in various Waterfront Toronto LRT projects) and managed backed the feds into funding the Ontario Line package in exchange for quid-pro-quo to restart Hamilton LRT.

Yes, if Doug tasked Metrolinx with designing an HSR line between Toronto and Collingwood (ignoring Windsor because there is an existing federal service) and the Feds came forward with an alternative proposal, Doug would absolutely demand the feds partner with them to fund the Metrolinx proposal and otherwise keep their fingers out of it.

I would argue that what you stated is Dougie pre NWC General Strike threat. I feel he will now listen to the people more, so if the feds came with money to extend HSR to London or Windsor, he would do his politicking, but in the end, he would agree to it.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by rbt

Pure speculation on my part, but I believe the UCP government would try to block it. The Transpod proposal is under the Alberta's Railway Act and a private company with $550m in secured investment, all achieved during UCP rule. An Alberta NDP government would be more inclined to accept the gift.

Also, without an interprovincial component it's also kinda outside Federal jurisdiction unless the province requests it. Federal infrastructure funding typically has some fairly broad strings but provinces can apply those funds how they like to any project meeting the goals/strings. I think UCP would argue those funds should be available for any public transit project in Alberta and that partially designed local transit projects in Calgary/Edmonton are their priorities: I believe federal courts would agree. If feds insist on it being inter-city, UCP would try to gift the money directly to Transpod as their already chosen contractor.

None of the provinces tend to turn down federal funding for transit projects which are solely within provincial boundaries with the exception Ottawa/ Gatineau. Why would funding be turned down to build the infrastructure? I can see the feds turning down any operating subsidies.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it connected to the existing Canadian service, why would not not fall under federal jursdiction?

In Canada, nearly all domestic infrastructure is under the province, even when federally funded it's typically implemented and maintained by the province. Military bases, ports, and airports are the exceptions, and all involve non-domestic concerns. Even some interprovincial transportation like the TransCanada highway and the TransCanada Trail are provincially built and maintained using federal funding.

So the right question is, why would a Calgary to Edmonton project be treated as a special case to fall under federal jurisdiction? Connecting to the Canadian VIA service isn't enough: VIA doesn't own or maintain any of that route for that matter. If an Edmonton LRT proposal to the Edmonton VIA station was made by the feds, it wouldn't be federal either even if they funded 100% of the project.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rbt

The Alberta government promised that route to TransPod. I'm not sure the current government would accept a VIA service in that corridor even if the federal government fully funded the project.

I'm not sure what authority the provincial government has to stop an operator from setting up rail service there. Especially if it's operating on existing tracks. What they have promised to Transpod is essentially a few highway median rights. For all the bluster, I really doubt a UCP government would go out of its way to block a real CalEd proposal that would likely be very popular.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rbt

In Canada, nearly all domestic infrastructure is under the province, even when federally funded it's typically implemented and maintained by the province. Military bases, ports, and airports are the exceptions, and all involve non-domestic concerns. Even some interprovincial transportation like the TransCanada highway and the TransCanada Trail are provincially built and maintained using federal funding.

So the right question is, why would a Calgary to Edmonton project be treated as a special case to fall under federal jurisdiction? Connecting to the Canadian VIA service isn't enough: VIA doesn't own or maintain any of that route for that matter. If an Edmonton LRT proposal to the Edmonton VIA station was made by the feds, it wouldn't be federal either even if they funded 100% of the project.

Lets take 2 provinces, ON and AB.

ON had 2 major heavy rail crown corporations - Metrolinx and the ONR. Both of these have experience running passenger service. Both of them have maintenance and repair shops.

AB does not have a heavy rail crown corporation. It does not have experience running passenger service. It does not have a maintenance or repair shop.

So, this is why it, and other inner provincial lines could be treated as special cases. Remember, Via does have 3 lines that operate completely within other provinces.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

AB does not have a heavy rail crown corporation. It does not have experience running passenger service. It does not have a maintenance or repair shop.

Frankly, VIA Rail in Alberta does not have experience building or running an HSR passenger service or maintenance/repair facilities for it.

The premise of this discussion was frequent HSR service between Calgary and Edmonton. If they wanted to extend the Canadian train from Edmonton to Calgary 2x weekly along the existing single-track corridor, nobody in government would stop them. Surely you're not going to argue that Alberta HSR rolling stock should be taken to Toronto for maintenance right?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, this is why it, and other inner provincial lines could be treated as special cases. Remember, Via does have 3 lines that operate completely within other provinces.

These services operate with the blessing of the province hosting them, they've also been around for a long time and in some cases are the only method of transportation to a region. They also tend to require a substantial subsidy.

Frequent HSR service requires a new corridor. VIA Rail has never expropriated large swaths of farm land to launch a new service as would be required here. They've also never reconfigured hundreds of local streets in the heart of Conservative Party territory with a provincial leader as hostile toward the federal government as Daniel Smith.

The Alberta government has every right to fight such a proposal and UCP would exercise that right with malice. At best UCP would toss the feds a bone by suggesting they invest in either the Transpod plan or Prairie Link, both of which would be under full control of the Alberta government.

Again, an NDP Alberta government might be more cooperative to a VIA driven service. There's no way Smith or Kenney or any near-future UCP leader will let a federal (let alone a Trudeau) appointed CEO located in Quebec to have any say over a major Alberta transportation corridor.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not sure what authority the provincial government has to stop an operator from setting up rail service there. Especially if it's operating on existing tracks. What they have promised to Transpod is essentially a few highway median rights. For all the bluster, I really doubt a UCP government would go out of its way to block a real CalEd proposal that would likely be very popular.

There are a number of industries like this. A railway can be setup under provincial or federal regulations but not both. The company has to pick. Once it picks that is the rules it falls under. It is all encompassing and quite expensive to change after the fact. Any unions have to recertify their contracts since they switch from provincial to/from federal labour law and OHS laws. Rules on track maintenance and operations also switch from provincial oversight to Transport Canada.

If the company picks provincial, then the company can't operate tracks or run trains that cross provincial or international borders. Any company with asperations to be more than a local operator is going to chose federal.

BC Rail was a good example. They were owned by the Province of BC but were federally regulated. They had a small spur line from Dawson Creek across into Alberta for interlining. They also operate a rail ferry from their terminal in North Vancouver to Seattle.

Same thing happens in other industries.

Bus service and trucking companies are the same way.

A slaughter house operating under provincial rules can only sell their output in that province. One under federal inspection can sell into any province or internationally.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by rbt

The Alberta government promised that route to TransPod. I'm not sure the current government would accept a VIA service in that corridor even if the federal government fully funded the project.

Who owns the track between Calgary and Edmonton? If it is a short line regulated by the province Alberta might have a say. If it is CN or CP then Alberta has no jurisdiction.

A moot point anyway, Via has no interest in that route.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Lets take 2 provinces, ON and AB.

ON had 2 major heavy rail crown corporations - Metrolinx and the ONR. Both of these have experience running passenger service. Both of them have maintenance and repair shops.

AB does not have a heavy rail crown corporation. It does not have experience running passenger service. It does not have a maintenance or repair shop.

So, this is why it, and other inner provincial lines could be treated as special cases. Remember, Via does have 3 lines that operate completely within other provinces.

The issue with Via is it is a single company. It is the company that operates under federal or provincial not the individual routes. Since Via operating across provincial borders it has to be federal.

A small railway that is currently in one province can chose to go under federal or provincial rules if it says it has asperations to eventually operate inter-provincial then its under federal. It would be silly for this upstart to chose provincial.

I know Saskatchewan has a few provincially regulated railways. This are mostly farmer owned and shunt cars to a point where they interline with the big guys.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

There are a number of industries like this. A railway can be setup under provincial or federal regulations but not both. The company has to pick. Once it picks that is the rules it falls under. It is all encompassing and quite expensive to change after the fact. Any unions have to recertify their contracts since they switch from provincial to/from federal labour law and OHS laws. Rules on track maintenance and operations also switch from provincial oversight to Transport Canada.

If the company picks provincial, then the company can't operate tracks or run trains that cross provincial or international borders. Any company with asperations to be more than a local operator is going to chose federal.

BC Rail was a good example. They were owned by the Province of BC but were federally regulated. They had a small spur line from Dawson Creek across into Alberta for interlining. They also operate a rail ferry from their terminal in North Vancouver to Seattle.

Same thing happens in other industries.

Bus service and trucking companies are the same way.

A slaughter house operating under provincial rules can only sell their output in that province. One under federal inspection can sell into any province or internationally.

ONR is federally regulated. But it is not.There is an old federal charter for a former line that ONR took over and when the line crosses into Quebec, it falls under that other charter.

Originally Posted by casper

The issue with Via is it is a single company. It is the company that operates under federal or provincial not the individual routes. Since Via operating across provincial borders it has to be federal.

A small railway that is currently in one province can chose to go under federal or provincial rules if it says it has asperations to eventually operate inter-provincial then its under federal. It would be silly for this upstart to chose provincial.

I know Saskatchewan has a few provincially regulated railways. This are mostly farmer owned and shunt cars to a point where they interline with the big guys.

If the goal one day is for Calgary and Edmonton to be connected by HSR to Regina, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, starting with a federal charter would be a good thing.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

ONR is federally regulated. But it is not.There is an old federal charter for a former line that ONR took over and when the line crosses into Quebec, it falls under that other charter.

I don't know the details of what is happening with how ONR is setup.

It would be perfectly acceptable for ONR to be provincial and for them to own a subsidiary that is federal that has that small line. The two companies would then need to interline somewhere.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

ONR is federally regulated. But it is not.There is an old federal charter for a former line that ONR took over and when the line crosses into Quebec, it falls under that other charter.

The origin story doesn’t matter, it is a federally regulated interprovincial railway.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by casper

It would be perfectly acceptable for ONR to be provincial and for them to own a subsidiary that is federal that has that small line. The two companies would then need to interline somewhere.

This is exactly the setup of the ONR (a provincially regulated railroad operating within Ontario only) and its subsidiary, the Nipissing Central Railway (a federally regulated railroad operating into Quebec), which interline at 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵…

[VANRIDERFAN]

I did a quick google map of a future when air travel and personal car travel is insanely expensive and the Rail has made a major comeback

HSR from Winnipeg to Calgary with stops in Brandon, Regina, Switft Current and Medicine Hat

HSR from Calgary to Edmonton

HSR from Regina to Saskatoon

HSR from Winnipeg to Dauphin (or go south of RMNP and stop at Yorkton instead) to Saskatoon to Llyodminster to Edmonton.

Then you could also put in HFR from regions north and south of the main HSR routes to route people to the stops to pick up HSR.

Many of the ROW from the heyday of the Rail construction still more or less exist. Nothing that money and initiative couldn't solve right?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

This is exactly the setup of the ONR (a provincially regulated railroad operating within Ontario only) and its subsidiary, the Nipissing Central Railway (a federally regulated railroad operating into Quebec), which interline at 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵…

I see 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 even has an impressive train station for such a small town.