Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Here we go again, more opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg nonsense!

Really

LOL I don't know about rejuvenate. I never made that claim but those barriers are ugly as hell and it would be a lot better to have them gone.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Luisito

LOL I don't know about rejuvenate. I never made that claim but those barriers are ugly as hell and it would be a lot better to have them gone.

No, no-one who's posted in favour of opening P & M has ever, if my memory serves me correctly, claimed "opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg". It's just a "straw man argument", which we sadly see so often.

For those who may be interested, here's a definition and some examples:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

The comment by the previous poster fits perfectly among these, IMO.

And I agree, they are "ugly as hell" IMO, and having them gone would have much more positive than negative.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by pspeid

No, no-one who's posted in favour of opening P & M has ever, if my memory serves me correctly, claimed "opening P&M will miraculously rejuvenate downtown Winnipeg". It's just a "straw man argument", which we sadly see so often.

For those who may be interested, here's a definition and some examples:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

The comment by the previous poster fits perfectly among these, IMO.

And I agree, they are "ugly as hell" IMO, and having them gone would have much more positive than negative.

With work from home, closing of all amenities aside from social services and a general disdain for Winnipeg's downtown because of safety issues by mostly everybody and the realization that pretty thing everything that's been tried to lure people downtown has failed think the "open P&M just because" ship has sailed!

Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!

If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

With work from home, closing of all amenities aside from social services and a general disdain for Winnipeg's downtown because of safety issues by mostly everybody and the realization that pretty thing everything that's been tried to lure people downtown has failed think the "open P&M just because" ship has sailed!

Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!

If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!

But the thing is you also kind of make the case for the opening too. Due to decreased traffic volumes because of work from home, maybe opening the intersection won't be the apocalypse that has been prophesied by the doomsday 'keep-the-pedestrians-away-at-all-costs' crowd.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

I would really like to see something like this for Portage Ave and Main Street. I don’t know how that would all come together at the intersection of P&M, but I think something like this would be a good way to help turn Portage and Main Street into desirable streets.

The challenge I see with curb side bike lanes at Portage and Main is the significant south to west and east to south traffic flows. That is going to create a high level of conflict between the different modes.

Originally Posted by rrskylar

If you live in west Winnipeg or south Winnipeg and never venture north you would be all for the opening as it wouldn't affect you!

The main challenges in terms of routes in Winnipeg are north-south and east-west. Southwest-northeast and southeast-northwest are the same sort of issue too. Notably southwest-northwest would be Sage Creek to the airport. These routes are especially problematic when a destination or origin is about a third or more of the travel distance inside the Perimeter as it makes the Perimeter option a lot less viable. I used to dread having to go from The Maples to my relatives in River Park South as there was simply no good route choice. The Maples to the area around Ikea was also absolutely dreadful. That said if Winnipeg ever gets a limited access and fully grade separated inner ring road network built it would definitely address a good chunk of that. CPT sure is nice when you are moving between the limited points it covers right now and having it go from SFX to Oakbank as an 80 km/h route with no stoplights would be a dream. Not that I go to either of those places but that route could easily shave off 50% or more of the time on current routes. Similar to how a proper limited access update to "Truth and Reconciliation Way" (aka Bishop) would serve the south side of the side say from Lorette to Oakbluff.

As for the traffic tunnel under Portage and Main, pushing something from the north-south Main St flow underground is definitely an idea to consider as part of a longer term plan to opening the intersection to pedestrians but that would require some significant cash be spent there.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The challenge I see with curb side bike lanes at Portage and Main is the significant south to west and east to south traffic flows. That is going to create a high level of conflict between the different modes.



The main challenges in terms of routes in Winnipeg are north-south and east-west. Southwest-northeast and southeast-northwest are the same sort of issue too. Notably southwest-northwest would be Sage Creek to the airport. These routes are especially problematic when a destination or origin is about a third or more of the travel distance inside the Perimeter as it makes the Perimeter option a lot less viable. I used to dread having to go from The Maples to my relatives in River Park South as there was simply no good route choice. The Maples to the area around Ikea was also absolutely dreadful. That said if Winnipeg ever gets a limited access and fully grade separated inner ring road network built it would definitely address a good chunk of that. CPT sure is nice when you are moving between the limited points it covers right now and having it go from SFX to Oakbank as an 80 km/h route with no stoplights would be a dream. Not that I go to either of those places but that route could easily shave off 50% or more of the time on current routes. Similar to how a proper limited access update to "Truth and Reconciliation Way" (aka Bishop) would serve the south side of the side say from Lorette to Oakbluff.

As for the traffic tunnel under Portage and Main, pushing something from the north-south Main St flow underground is definitely an idea to consider as part of a longer term plan to opening the intersection to pedestrians but that would require some significant cash be spent there.

I look at the infrastructure put in place in other cities and shake my head at what Winnipeg has done or actually hasn't done! We're supposedly on pace to hit one million in 15-20 years and we still have basically the road system that existed in 1970 when Winnipeg was 500K

[sleepyeyed]

With the shift to electric cars, why not shift automobile infrastructure to be mostly underground? the biggest issue was always fumes in long tunnels. Build underground toll freeways and return more streets to mixed uses.

[The Jabroni]

I'd rather blow up all the barriers and gaslight the crap out of the citizens at this point.

Pics? Photoshop.

You walked on top of them? No you didn't.

Traffic is gonna be bad? What traffic?

You know what's made from real? Your imagination.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

I look at the infrastructure put in place in other cities and shake my head at what Winnipeg has done or actually hasn't done! We're supposedly on pace to hit one million in 15-20 years and we still have basically the road system that existed in 1970 when Winnipeg was 500K

Completely agreed, just look at a map of Moncton. How does that tiny city with a metro of 170 000 people afford multiple high speed limited access roadways and Winnipeg has absolutely zero. This city is a joke when it comes to transportation infrastructure of all kinds. A massive joke.

[pspeid]

I've always been on the "open P & M" side, but I've tried to see if the "keep it closed" side had any valid arguments, and reduce the "demonizing" and sarcasm that tends to dominate the discussion.

Would there be traffic chaos? Studies have been done that show there would be delays during peak traffic periods, sometimes in several minutes depending on the direction drivers are taking-likely true

Would there be hazards to pedestrians? I would think any time that pedestrians and auto traffic cross paths there will be an increase in danger of accident-likely true

Too expensive? It would cost millions of dollars to open-true

Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.

Are these valid points? I would have to give a qualified "in the short term, yes, they are valid"

Of course, the "open" side has counter arguments.

Traffic chaos-some people will find alternate routes/delays will only happen at the busiest times/ the delays are not that long-some fact, some speculation.

Safety-every intersection has the same dangers/there are more dangerous intersections in the city/ drivers and pedestrians have to be careful-hopeful speculation

Expense-the barriers have to be removed for underground repairs anyway- fact

Majority rules?-the majority only represents people who briefly pass through P & M/most people in the immediate area want P & M open-apparently fact

Of these, the "cost" argument seems the most compelling, even overwhelming, in favour of the "open" side. The barriers will apparently have to be removed to make repairs below ground, and some will probably will have to stay down for the proposed BRT routes. There will be traffic delays/re-routing while the construction is going on, and this will most likely result in drivers and busses adopting alternate routes that a number will keep using after P & M is open.

I'd like to add one more thing to the "open" side-vision. An open P & M is a piece (yes just a piece, it's not a magic bullet) of what I hope will eventually become a walkable and hopefully fairly vibrant downtown; one with a strong residential base, safe streets and pleasing street-scapes.

It confuses me that so many of the people opposed to opening P & M also seem to want to see the same thing. I don't understand how keeping P & M closed can do anything but contribute to the downtown conditions that so many of us bemoan in our posts. I would there isn't a contingent of people here who want to see the downtown fail, though sometimes it's difficult for me to come to any other conclusion.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Most of you just can't grasp that the only route for many from NE and NW Winnipeg to south Winnipeg is on Main Street through downtown, like it or not. Blame poor planning in the 1950's and 60's for this!

And yet every other intersection along this magical route allows pedestrians.
Including two manually activated pedestrian crosswalks on Main Street just a few blocks north.

The whole "sky is falling" argument about re-opening this intersection to pedestrians is complete nonsense.

[Biff]

I am on the Open side.

I use the intersection everyday. Live in the NE and travel to the SW for work.

It has been closed for 40+ years. The immediate area has seen some amazing developments and change in recent years.

The only legitimate negative is that it will add 30 to 90 seconds to someones commute.

What is the harm in opening it to see if any of the potential benefits that could be possible become a reality. If people are being mowed down and killed on a daily basis then close it again (a joke of course - if this were a fact then pedestrians should not be able to cross the streets anywhere). Lots change in 40+ years. What would a 1-2 year trial hurt.

[bomberjet]

We're going on about this again?

[rkspec]

Weren't they going to remove them anyways to make some repairs?

Is that still on the radar?

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.

Hate to pick nits here, but only 28% of eligible voters wanted to keep it closed. The vast majority didn't care enough to vote.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

I am on the Open side.

I use the intersection everyday. Live in the NE and travel to the SW for work.

It has been closed for 40+ years. The immediate area has seen some amazing developments and change in recent years.

The only legitimate negative is that it will add 30 to 90 seconds to someones commute.

What is the harm in opening it to see if any of the potential benefits that could be possible become a reality. If people are being mowed down and killed on a daily basis then close it again (a joke of course - if this were a fact then pedestrians should not be able to cross the streets anywhere). Lots change in 40+ years. What would a 1-2 year trial hurt.

The egoes of the people who claim that keeping the intersection closed is correct and has some sort of attached moral value. That said, this is my assessment of why nothing ever happens here in terms of normal urban evolution or upgrades. People don't want to change, ascribe some moral value to the stasis that we have been living in since 1920, and then cry foul anytime anything remotely forward thinking is implemented. Of course, once they've internalized the change, they no longer oppose it.

Obviously there is room for healthy debate on ideas and proposals, but often we need to step back and have the humility to realize that we may not be correct in doing things differently than every other place out there, and maybe, just maybe, the reason we are the only ones standing stubbornly in the breach is because we are simply attached to our stasis, and not because it is a good idea. Very rarely is it the case that we are right and everyone else is wrong.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Hate to pick nits here, but only 28% of eligible voters wanted to keep it closed. The vast majority didn't care enough to vote.

Good point, not nit-picky at all.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Very rarely is it the case that we are right and everyone else is wrong.

I think some folks might cling to their original position at any cost simply to feel they have "defeated" the other person.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I think some folks might cling to their original position at any cost simply to feel they have "defeated" the other person.

Hence my call for having a bit of humility and perhaps open-mindedness to change.

[bomberjet]

Anecdotal. I was once again at P&M yesterday, at Hy's. And I thought to myself while looking out the window. Which way should I walk back. And then it hit me the damn barriers are in the way for me to go either west on Portage or south on Main. So to the underground..