VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

I would say that there is some irony about how open the PCs/provincial government has been with the return of Northlander Vs Via's HFR.

I do wonder whether we will be riding the Northlander before the HFR.

[swimmer_spe]

Record snow in the Lower Mainland
Needed to borrow an extra CN engine
Blizzard in Ontario.
Train derailment east of Toronto
Lack of plowing in New Brunswick.

Within the last few days these are the reasons Via has been struggling to stay running. I keep wanting to say that "in winter weather trains are better". With these issues, it appears as though that rail travel is not much better than any other travel.

[Djeffery]

I have to say that this is the most disruptive winter storm I have ever seen with such a small amount of actual snowfall. I have neighbours here in west London with bare grass while others have 3 foot drifts against their garage doors. Too windy and cold for the salt trucks to be effective, brutal driving conditions. Looks like the 401 is finally open in most places, the 402 still shows almost entirely closed.

[J.OT13]

Alstom proposing HSR from Quebec City to Toronto instead of HFR.

Alstom propose à nouveau un TGV entre Québec et Toronto

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2023/0...a-nouveau-un-tgv-entre-quebec-et-toronto

Presentation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13dz3mo9...ZDiamz37K0Fffdp_JKWp9jQ9H_Ib3vBf0i8Y7ICc

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Alstom proposing HSR from Quebec City to Toronto instead of HFR.


https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2023/0...a-nouveau-un-tgv-entre-quebec-et-toronto

Presentation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13dz3mo9...ZDiamz37K0Fffdp_JKWp9jQ9H_Ib3vBf0i8Y7ICc

Anything in English?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Anything in English?

The presentation (second link) seems to be in English?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The presentation (second link) seems to be in English?

It is. Thank you.

Since HFR has not gone out for tender,could this sway Via to go HSR instead?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is. Thank you.

Since HFR has not gone out for tender,could this sway Via to go HSR instead?

The government sent out an RFQ which this was a response to. My understanding is that RFQ was basically "we want to build a train line from Toronto to Quebec, we think it'll generally look like this, but we are open to ideas".

This is Alstom's pitch for ideas.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Alstom proposing HSR from Quebec City to Toronto instead of HFR.
Presentation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13dz3mo9...ZDiamz37K0Fffdp_JKWp9jQ9H_Ib3vBf0i8Y7ICc

Interesting slide deck with probably the most tangible information we've seen in this endeavour so far.

A few preliminary thoughts:

- Very Quebec-centric. It looks like most of the cap ex will be on building a true HSR line between QC and MTL. There's a similar-length HSR segment through the Canadian Shield in eastern Ontario on the OTT-TO leg, but kind of disappointing that it drops to conventional speeds through Peterborough and west. I guess that CDPQ is probably a significant investor? They may not have a mandate to invest on the Ottawa-Toronto leg, even though that's the biggest market right now.

- The Toronto approach via the Don valley is...interesting. If they would have partnered with Metrolinx and built the flyover at Scarborough junction, they could have used the more direct Stouffville line, which would also allow them to serve East Harbour. That ship probably sailed a long time ago, though.

- Using Lucien L'Allier as a terminus rather than Central Station as a through station makes sense. It doesn't use the tunnel, the station itself is underused and in almost as good a location as Gare Centrale. The number of passengers traveling from Ottawa through Montreal to points east and vice versa is probably relatively small. For Quebeckers and Ontarians alike, Montreal is the destination. The only minor inconvenience is people from QC and TR going to YUL.

- Keeping the old alignment and traveling through Peterborough is disappointing. This will probably add 15 minutes to travel time alone, and probably force a stop in the city which is almost entirely unwarranted for express services.

[Truenorth00]

I don't get the "Quebec centric" complaint. I've seen it elsewhere too. Quite simply the proposal upgrades all new build segments to 300 kph. Everywhere else they are upgrading existing corridors to a speed that is allowable without extending substantial capital.

There's also the market to consider. Toronto to Montreal (via Ottawa) needs to be ~3 hrs to be competitive with air. Montreal to Quebec City needs to be under about 1:45 hrs to be competitive with air. Their investments target that. The Ottawa-Montreal and Trois Rivieres-Montreal segments have also been made fast enough to turn those cities into exurbs of Montreal. You don't need 200 kph service to turn Peterborough into an exurb of Toronto.

I'd say they seem to be smartly targeting capital for the most return on investment.

[Nouvellecosse]

One thing I find a bit odd is how they estimate the overall time savings to be greater between Toronto and Ottawa compared to Toronto to Montreal. Even if you didn't save any time at all between Ottawa and Montreal (which they claim would actually save 20 min) how could you not at least retain the time savings from the Ottawa-Toronto segment?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

One thing I find a bit odd is how they estimate the overall time savings to be greater between Toronto and Ottawa compared to Toronto to Montreal. Even if you didn't save any time at all between Ottawa and Montreal (which they claim would actually save 20 min) how could you not at least retain the time savings from the Ottawa-Toronto segment?

These time savings are from the HFR proposal and they are benchmarked agains current services. Toronto-Ottawa has the greatest reduction because it moves to a shorter and faster alignment. Toronto-Montreal gains speed but also adds distance going via Ottawa. So not as much savings.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The government sent out an RFQ which this was a response to. My understanding is that RFQ was basically "we want to build a train line from Toronto to Quebec, we think it'll generally look like this, but we are open to ideas".

This is Alstom's pitch for ideas.

Ahhhhh
That is a good thing then. So, this means that HFR could be built as HSR.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

One thing I find a bit odd is how they estimate the overall time savings to be greater between Toronto and Ottawa compared to Toronto to Montreal. Even if you didn't save any time at all between Ottawa and Montreal (which they claim would actually save 20 min) how could you not at least retain the time savings from the Ottawa-Toronto segment?

You get those savings. Do the quick math of Toronto through Ottawa to Montreal.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

These time savings are from the HFR proposal and they are benchmarked agains current services. Toronto-Ottawa has the greatest reduction because it moves to a shorter and faster alignment. Toronto-Montreal gains speed but also adds distance going via Ottawa. So not as much savings.

Ok I guess that makes more sense. It was confusing because a few slides down they make the comparison with the US NE corridor and how there are local and HSR trains sharing the same alignment. Neither the HFR original proposal nor their enhanced FHR version would need that since the existing corridor would retain the existing local service and there aren't enough intermediate stops on the HFR route to warrant a separate service with non-HSR trains. So I assumed that the current "average trip time" was for the existing HFR proposal while the "New trip time" was their enhanced HFR with both being compared to full HSR along the existing corridor.

It's a little confusing for them to compare HFR and HSR with the current services when a major factor in the trip duration would be the number of stops rather than the train speeds which they seem to be trying to compare.

[ssiguy]

This seems like a VASTLY superior proposal than the standard HFR. If you are going to spend billions then get some REAL time savings.

I am surprised that it didn't include the southern Ottawa bypass for trains strictly for Mon/Tor express which would shave a good 40 minutes off the travel time with 300 km/hr speeds . If it was included I would run the service as the following using every other departure:
1} Toronto-Peterborough-Montreal-Trois Rivieres-Quebec
2} Toronto-Montreal-Quebec

Next stop London-Windsor with a connection to Detroit.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Interesting slide deck with probably the most tangible information we've seen in this endeavour so far.

A few preliminary thoughts:

- Very Quebec-centric. It looks like most of the cap ex will be on building a true HSR line between QC and MTL. There's a similar-length HSR segment through the Canadian Shield in eastern Ontario on the OTT-TO leg, but kind of disappointing that it drops to conventional speeds through Peterborough and west. I guess that CDPQ is probably a significant investor? They may not have a mandate to invest on the Ottawa-Toronto leg, even though that's the biggest market right now.

- The Toronto approach via the Don valley is...interesting. If they would have partnered with Metrolinx and built the flyover at Scarborough junction, they could have used the more direct Stouffville line, which would also allow them to serve East Harbour. That ship probably sailed a long time ago, though.

- Using Lucien L'Allier as a terminus rather than Central Station as a through station makes sense. It doesn't use the tunnel, the station itself is underused and in almost as good a location as Gare Centrale. The number of passengers traveling from Ottawa through Montreal to points east and vice versa is probably relatively small. For Quebeckers and Ontarians alike, Montreal is the destination. The only minor inconvenience is people from QC and TR going to YUL.

- Keeping the old alignment and traveling through Peterborough is disappointing. This will probably add 15 minutes to travel time alone, and probably force a stop in the city which is almost entirely unwarranted for express services.

When you mention competitive with air do you include the time to get to the airport, go through security, board and deplane, get your luggage?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This seems like a VASTLY superior proposal than the standard HFR. If you are going to spend billions then get some REAL time savings.

I am surprised that it didn't include the southern Ottawa bypass for trains strictly for Mon/Tor express which would shave a good 40 minutes off the travel time with 300 km/hr speeds . If it was included I would run the service as the following using every other departure:
1} Toronto-Peterborough-Montreal-Trois Rivieres-Quebec
2} Toronto-Montreal-Quebec

Next stop London-Windsor with a connection to Detroit.

I don't see a good reason to bypass Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This seems like a VASTLY superior proposal than the standard HFR. If you are going to spend billions then get some REAL time savings.

The government intentionally left HFR open as a concept to see what industry would propose. This is one proposal. Will have to see what other ideas come in.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I am surprised that it didn't include the southern Ottawa bypass for trains strictly for Mon/Tor express which would shave a good 40 minutes off the travel time with 300 km/hr speeds .

The Ottawa bypass was and is a really dumb idea. You end up with less frequencies to both Ottawa and Montreal. And then you reduce the capacity between Ottawa and Montreal, arguably the highest ridership potential segment in this whole proposal (based on a basic gravity model). You also end up adding an extra ~130 km of track to maintain. So added cost.

The better idea is simply to boost overall speed so that thru service is still competitive enough. Once they get 3 hrs from Toronto to Montreal, going faster with a bypass really won't get that many more passengers willing to pay for it. At 3 hrs they will be substantially competitive with air between Toronto and Montreal. At 2 hrs, they'll kill the majority of air service between Toronto and Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

When you mention competitive with air do you include the time to get to the airport, go through security, board and deplane, get your luggage?

Exactly. Take a trip from Union Stn to Montreal on Porter, using REM in Montreal.

Union Stn to YTZ: 16 mins by car.
Minimum pre-boarding at YTZ: 20 mins (30 mins at YUL).
Flight time from YTZ to YUL: 1:13 hrs
REM from YUL to Gare Centrale: 25 mins

The above adds up to 134 mins and doesn't include wait times at station or moving from plane to exit, etc. Assumes you can magically teleport off the airplane on to a REM train. In reality, you need another 15-20 mins buffer at the departure airport and another 15-20 mins on arrival to deboard and get to a train. Easily 3 hrs minimum. A more realistic minimum is 3.5 hrs. Any train less than 3.5 hrs will be really competitive.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. Take a trip from Union Stn to Montreal on Porter, using REM in Montreal.

Union Stn to YTZ: 16 mins by car.
Minimum pre-boarding at YTZ: 20 mins (30 mins at YUL).
Flight time from YTZ to YUL: 1:13 hrs
REM from YUL to Gare Centrale: 25 mins

The above adds up to 134 mins and doesn't include wait times at station or moving from plane to exit, etc. Assumes you can magically teleport off the airplane on to a REM train. In reality, you need another 15-20 mins buffer at the departure airport and another 15-20 mins on arrival to deboard and get to a train. Easily 3 hrs minimum. A more realistic minimum is 3.5 hrs. Any train less than 3.5 hrs will be really competitive.

That’s 20 minutes for both security, walking through the island airport tunnel, and boarding? You need an hour realisticallly to make sure you don’t miss your flight.

3hr train time is roughly equal to flight time, and that’s with Porter. If you are going to Pearson from city centre it’s even faster.