Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Have you ever been on a transit line where trains ran flat out from a station?

Planners wanted to have stations in places that are not in a straight line. You can’t do that without curves. I guess they could have dropped the VIA station and OttawaU which would have removed several curves.

The biggest problem is Hurdman Station. To have reduced all those curves would have required following a Queensway alignment. In other words, moving Lees and Hurdman Stations to the north next to the Queensway. But, we wanted to avoid building a new Rideau River bridge and a new Right of Way, which was probably going to be very complicated and expensive. As it turned out, we had to substantially rehabilitate the Transitway bridge anyways.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

McGuinty insisted on paying a fixed provincial contribution, unlike other transit projects where the province paid a share. Since the Feds wouldn’t pay more than the province, the city was left with 100% of the cost increase, which left it desperate to contain costs (and cut corners).

On top of this, the city made the mind-numbingly stupid decision to insist on tram technologies, against the advice of industry, consultants and common sense.

The irony is that Watson was a big part of that as Municipal Affairs Minister. He shot himself in the foot by short-changing Ottawa before going back into municipal politics. Of anyone, he probably carries the majority of the blame.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Top speed and line design speed are 2 totally different things. I feel that this line is not designed to be very fast with the way it curves.

Lees to Cyrville is excruciatingly slow, now more than ever (fingers crossed this is in fact temporary), but Blair to Cyrville, Lees to uOttawa, Parliament to Lyon are pretty quick, and I do believe that the former two reach 80km/h.

[Dzingle Bells]

I'm always a little disappointed at how much the train has to slow down when exiting and entering the west portal of the tunnel. The two curves there aren't too bad but they obviously have an effect on speed.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The biggest problem is Hurdman Station. To have reduced all those curves would have required following a Queensway alignment. In other words, moving Lees and Hurdman Stations to the north next to the Queensway. But, we wanted to avoid building a new Rideau River bridge and a new Right of Way, which was probably going to be very complicated and expensive. As it turned out, we had to substantially rehabilitate the Transitway bridge anyways.

There would have been plenty of space to build a straighter alignment for Hurdman. I'd love to see who decide against this (or never took the opportunity to think about it), the unmoving NCC or the City stuck in its Transitway alignment box.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I'll refer back to this chart comparing average speeds of urban rail systems in Canada, and I'll especially point out the jump in average speed that comes after all of Stage 2 is built (from those numbers it even exceeds the SkyTrain, and no not all of that is because of the Greenbelt).

Post it here for everyone to see.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Better Data, a few more systems, and counting 1 way stations as 0.5 stations (makes Calgary fit better, also I did the math for Calgary using time tables, instead of using their reports which may have not included recent expansions):



Leads to distinct groupings:



And there was peace in our time!

[OTownandDown]

I think a good curvy comparison is the DLR line in London, especially through Canary Wharf to Greenwich, which has a 64km/hr operating speed according to the google.

I thought this quote from Wikipedia was interesting: "Despite having high floors and being automated, the cars are derived from a German light-rail design intended for street running. . Units were purchased from Bombardier in 2005 and delivered between 2007 and 2010"

Also, how DARE they make inter-lined, branching networks!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

There would have been plenty of space to build a straighter alignment for Hurdman. I'd love to see who decide against this (or never took the opportunity to think about it), the unmoving NCC or the City stuck in its Transitway alignment box.

Land ownership issues here. The turn from the bridge going into a more northerly Hurdman Station would have been just as tight, but the curves from there going east towards Tremblay could have been reduced. Were we too focused on a possible Southeast Transitway conversion to rail when choosing the location of Hurdman Station? Then we dropped that idea, but didn't reassess the station location. Ultimately, we wanted to re-use the Transitway Station location, which is presumably owned by the city. Relocating the station would have cost more in land acquisition. Keeping costs down was the goal.

[lrt's friend]

Does the chart take into consideration the current Go-Slow orders? I doubt it. I worry that the track alignment will not allow the elimination of those orders. There are vested interests in protecting the rolling stock from being damaged. Maintenance costs, but also ongoing shutdowns, which will further damage public perception. I hope I am wrong. We are spending $10B+ if we build Phase 3 and it is crucial that it work efficiently. Phase 2 also has curves. Whatever is wrong needs to be addressed in Phase 2.

It will be interesting to see the performance of the Trillium Line at the curve next to Bowesville station, which has a significant downward slope southbound at that curve just before the station. I was curious about the slope at that station and then realized that the right of way had to dip under hydro lines.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I think a good curvy comparison is the DLR line in London, especially through Canary Wharf to Greenwich, which has a 64km/hr operating speed according to the google.

I thought this quote from Wikipedia was interesting: "Despite having high floors and being automated, the cars are derived from a German light-rail design intended for street running. . Units were purchased from Bombardier in 2005 and delivered between 2007 and 2010"

Also, how DARE they make inter-lined, branching networks!

With all the comments opposing interlining in Ottawa, here we are, building a branched network and interlining with Phase 2.

I just hope that we improve off-peak service from 6 minutes to 5 minutes. Branched service would be 12 minutes, which doesn't work reliably with 30 minute bus connections. Perhaps, we haven't learned from the Trillium Line or just don't care.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Since everyone is talking about Vancouver's curves, one interesting comparison is the Canada Line. While the other lines have fast and quiet super elevated curves, the Canada line has flat, screechy and slow turns, though there's far less of them then Ottawa so it's not as much of a problem. It also has stupidly short platforms that cannot be easily extended .

And the other major difference is that it was built with a P3 model just like ours, which I think really encourages corner cutting as companies try to squeak out as much profit since they are on the hook for all the risk

That is interesting as the 2 lines are not the same technology.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Have you ever been on a transit line where trains ran flat out from a station?

Planners wanted to have stations in places that are not in a straight line. You can’t do that without curves. I guess they could have dropped the VIA station and OttawaU which would have removed several curves.

Well, the Yonge side of the Subway in Toronto is almost straight. So... yes.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The biggest problem is Hurdman Station. To have reduced all those curves would have required following a Queensway alignment. In other words, moving Lees and Hurdman Stations to the north next to the Queensway. But, we wanted to avoid building a new Rideau River bridge and a new Right of Way, which was probably going to be very complicated and expensive. As it turned out, we had to substantially rehabilitate the Transitway bridge anyways.

So, they cheaped out and now have issues. I'll bet if we look at all the curves, they are not built to the max speed the LRVs can get up to.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, they cheaped out and now have issues. I'll bet if we look at all the curves, they are not built to the max speed the LRVs can get up to.

We know this was all 'value engineered' from the start. They needed to follow the Transitway right of way as much as possible to keep costs down. It is a reasonable approach for the most part, but nobody, at least here, understood the implication of all those curves between Lees and Tremblay stations. Now we know.

I will be perfectly happy if we could achieve the original speeds on this section of track. I never expected speeds achieved by the Skytrain on straight track on this section. I understand that. We will see.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We know this was all 'value engineered' from the start. They needed to follow the Transitway right of way as much as possible to keep costs down. It is a reasonable approach for the most part, but nobody, at least here, understood the implication of all those curves between Lees and Tremblay stations. Now we know.

I will be perfectly happy if we could achieve the original speeds on this section of track. I never expected speeds achieved by the Skytrain on straight track. I understand that. We will see.

If it was built at "Value Engineered" then why expect something that would work well? You wanted Walmart quality, and that is what you got.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The biggest problem is Hurdman Station. To have reduced all those curves would have required following a Queensway alignment.

Or we could have cut down some of the precious, nationally-significant weedy trees at Hurdman.

[rocketphish]

City of Ottawa looking to settle legal dispute with Rideau Transit Group over LRT line
Council voted to approve confidential settlements terms on Wednesday.

Staff Reporter, Ottawa Citizen
Published Jan 25, 2023 • 2 minute read

Ottawa city council has voted to negotiate a settlement with the builder of the much-maligned Confederation Line.

Council approved a motion Wednesday that would authorize transit services general manager Renée Amilcar to “negotiate, finalize and execute a binding settlement agreement with Rideau Transit Group” in consultation with interim city manager Wendy Stephanson and the city solicitor, and in line with terms presented during a confidential, in-camera briefing.

The motion also directed Amilcar and Stephanson to provide a further update to council “following the execution of a settlement agreement.”

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe told reporters that details couldn’t be discussed until a final agreement has been reached, including whether any taxpayer money would be part of the settlement.

“But we expect within the next couple of days the city will be able to make a clear statement about what’s happened here,” he said.

The city had filed a $131-million lawsuit against RTG in May 2021, claiming the consortium contracted to build the first stage of LRT failed to meet certain terms of the deal, including missing two key completion dates in 2018. It was August 2019 before the Confederation Line was handed over to the city.

The multi-million-dollar claim included carrying costs, delayed opening expenses, consultant expenditures, wages and salaries of employees, financial costs and accounting expenses, the statement of claim stated.

RTG filed a countersuit against the city in April 2022, claiming $189.7 million in damages and also asking the court to declare that the city “unlawfully” withheld more than $35.2 million in payments under the construction contract for delays.

Among other points, RTG’s countersuit argued delays to the start of LRT operations were because of the city’s “acts and omissions.” In one case, RTG’s statement of claim stated, the city didn’t approve designs for the Alstom Citadis Spirit trains until August 2014, 10 months after Alstom required it. That meant Alstom couldn’t start manufacturing the trains under its project schedule, according to RTG.

The motion approved by councillors on Wednesday made reference to one of the findings of the Commission Report of the Ottawa Light Rail Transit Public Inquiry, released on Nov. 30, which said the city and RTG “should resolve outstanding disputes at the earliest opportunity and that RTG and the City, as well as RTM and Alstom Maintenance, should make efforts to repair their relationships and work together better for the greater good of the project.”

Sutcliffe said Wednesday that he believes it’s the feeling of council that the settlement “is in the best interests of taxpayers and residents of Ottawa and OC Transpo passengers, that this is our best path forward for the community.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-with-rideau-transit-group-over-lrt-line

[rocketphish]

City to seek out-of-court settlement with RTG over light rail contract
Had filed 2 notices of default against Confederation Line builder

CBC News
Posted: Jan 25, 2023 5:56 PM EST | Last Updated: 4 minutes ago

Ottawa's city council has directed its head of transit services to negotiate a settlement with Rideau Transit Group (RTG) in a long-running dispute over whether the light rail builder has lived up to the terms of its contract.

The direction came after council spent five hours behind closed doors Wednesday getting a legal update about the fight over Stage 1 of LRT.

The city had previously filed two notices of default against RTG: one in March 2020, roughly half a year after the problem-plagued Confederation Line launched, and a second in September 2021 following a pair of derailments.

Those two derailments were among the motivating factors that led to the decision to launch a public inquiry into the LRT network.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe told reporters after the meeting that he couldn't give any details about the settlement and that there would be more information available within the next couple of days.

"All we can say about this today is that council approved a settlement agreement based on the terms that were disclosed in-camera. They're confidential terms," he said.

"I think the feeling of council is that it is in the best interests of taxpayers and residents of Ottawa, and OC Transpo passengers, that this is our best path forward."

In November, the Ottawa Light Rail Transit Public Inquiry submitted its final report with 103 recommendations.

One of those was that RTG and the city should resolve outstanding disputes and repair their relationship.

When asked if this is a move by council to better relations with RTG, the mayor said again that he can't provide details about the agreement, but said, "the short answer to the question is, 'yes'."

More than a year ago, the city went to court asking a judge to rule that RTG had not met the contract's obligations.

A hearing with a judge had been scheduled for three non-consecutive days starting Feb 14. RTG and the city also have a case conference scheduled for Friday, which could affect the hearing dates.

Had a court ruled RTG was in fact in default, it could have paved the way for the city to end its 30-year maintenance contract — one that's worth more than $1 billion.

But on Wednesday, council asked transit services general manager Renée Amilcar, in consultation with other high-ranking city officials, to instead forge a settlement with the consortium.

Council did not share any other details from their closed session.

RTG had previously argued, among other things, that the city was going to court to distract attention from the LRT inquiry.

In May 2021, the city sued RTG for $131 million for so-called soft costs it says it incurred due to the 2016 Rideau Street sinkhole.

Then in April 2022, RTG hit the city with a $225-million countersuit, arguing that under its contract with the city, the builders are not responsible for the 15-month delay to finish the light rail line.

Sutcliffe would not confirm if the settlement discussed Wednesday is only about the notices of default, or if it also relates to the lawsuits.

With files from Kate Porter, Trevor Pritchard and Joe Tunney

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/settlement-rtg-light-rail-contract-amilcar-1.6726163

[Fading Isle]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The biggest problem is Hurdman Station. To have reduced all those curves would have required following a Queensway alignment. In other words, moving Lees and Hurdman Stations to the north next to the Queensway. But, we wanted to avoid building a new Rideau River bridge and a new Right of Way, which was probably going to be very complicated and expensive. As it turned out, we had to substantially rehabilitate the Transitway bridge anyways.

I don't understand this, but of course I'm not an expert, so I'd love to be enlightened. Why did the curves need to be so dramatic at Hurdman? There is about 120 metres of completely straight track on each side of the station before the curves begin, and I don't know why that was necessary. Doesn't appear to be necessary in other systems in Canada. Union Station in Toronto is built in basically exactly the same amount of space, has to make 90 degree turns on either end, and has longer platforms. The curves out of Union Station manage to be much more gradual so the 140 metre long trains have no problem navigating, because the curves start right at the edge of the station.

[acottawa]

Some sort of medical emergency brought the whole LRT to a "hold" this morning.

There actually was some information communicated. On the train there was a little electronic sign by the door and there were announcements both on the train and in the station.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it was built at "Value Engineered" then why expect something that would work well? You wanted Walmart quality, and that is what you got.

I think the actual descriptor is "You wanted Chevy quality, and that is what you got."

"It's not a Cadillac" - Man who quoined 'Ottawa's Eiffel Tower'

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I think the actual descriptor is "You wanted Chevy quality, and that is what you got."

"It's not a Cadillac" - Man who quoined 'Ottawa's Eiffel Tower'

Basically the same thing. But in essence, you get what you pay for.Hopefully we learn from this mess.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it was built at "Value Engineered" then why expect something that would work well? You wanted Walmart quality, and that is what you got.

Cheap doesn't mean we have to accept failure. Walmart is cheaper but it's efficient. Locating the stops to cut costs on the tunnel doesn't explain it not working. Would a few less but heavier higher capacity vehicles even have cost any more? As we get more money we could have reduced headways.