Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Luisito

It also means solid better trains that were desgined to move at higher capacity, higher speed with more people. Trams were not designed for that.

It doesn't mean that at all. Metro trains aren't "more solid" and in fact are often lighter and less solid since they don't need the same crash worthiness as vehicles that operate on street or with level crossings. Metro trains also don't have higher top speeds than LRT. Metro trains tend to have a top speed of 70-100 km/h which is the same range as LRT trains. You've just decided on this whole narrative out of a vague sense of what's proper despite there not being any evidence behind it.

It's true that LRT trains don't have as much capacity but that just prevents it from carrying as many people. It doesn't cause it to break down. Meanwhile, the extra weight just means they use more power than necessary. So you're right in that metro trains probably would have been better for Ottawa but there's no reason to think that it caused any of the technical issues. It's like if a person bought a big 4x4 SUV to use around town and never did any off-roading, towing, etc. If the vehicle has a mechanical issue, that has nothing to do with the fact that an inappropriate vehicle is being used in that setting. The only downsides would be in higher fuel usage, poorer handling, harder to park, etc.

[Luisito]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It doesn't mean that at all. Metro trains aren't "more solid" and in fact are often lighter and less solid since they don't need the same crash worthiness as vehicles that operate on street or with level crossings. Metro trains also don't have higher top speeds than LRT. Metro trains tend to have a top speed of 70-100 km/h which is the same range as LRT trains. You've just decided on this whole narrative out of a vague sense of what's proper despite there not being any evidence behind it.

That's complete and utter Nonses it is also gas lighting. There is a reason it's called light rail. Metro trains are bigger and much large than trams and move faster, and carry more people. How can you sit there and even deny this? Just curious, Have you ever actually been on a subway or LRT system? There is nothing vague about it metro trains and LRT are different.

t's true that LRT trains don't have as much capacity but that just prevents it from carrying as many people. It doesn't cause it to break down. Meanwhile, the extra weight just means they use more power than necessary. So you're right in that metro trains probably would have been better for Ottawa but there's no reason to think that it caused any of the technical issues. It's like if a person bought a big 4x4 SUV to use around town and never did any off-roading, towing, etc. If the vehicle has a mechanical issue, that has nothing to do with the fact that an inappropriate vehicle is being used in that setting. The only downsides would be in higher fuel usage, poorer handling, harder to park, etc.

The amount of people getting on did cause tecnical problems. The lack of doors and the amount of people caused major problems early on. Tram doors are not designed to be pushed like metro trains doors. They had to shut the whole system down over the issue with the doors.

[swimmer_spe]

[QUOTE=Luisito;9834281]

That's complete and utter Nonses it is also gas lighting. There is a reason it's called light rail. Metro trains are bigger and much large than trams and move faster, and carry more people. How can you sit there and even deny this? Just curious, Have you ever actually been on a subway or LRT system?

Lets do some comparisons.

Toronto Rocket Subway cars
Weight
205,000 kg (202 long tons; 226 short tons) (per trainset);
34,167 kg (33.627 long tons; 37.663 short tons) per car

Montreal MR-73
Weight 26,990 kg (59,500 lb) per car (unladen)

Montreal MPM-10
Weight 26.5 t (238 t 9-car train)

Montreal MR-63
Weight 26,080 kg (57,500 lb) per car (unladen)

Ottawa Alstom Citadis Spirit
Cannot find the weight.

Ottawa Stadler FLIRT
Weight 76–206 t (75–203 long tons; 84–227 short tons)

Ottawa Alstom Coradia LINT
Cannot find weight

[Luisito]

[QUOTE=swimmer_spe;9834298]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Lets do some comparisons.

Toronto Rocket Subway cars
Weight
205,000 kg (202 long tons; 226 short tons) (per trainset);
34,167 kg (33.627 long tons; 37.663 short tons) per car

Montreal MR-73
Weight 26,990 kg (59,500 lb) per car (unladen)

Montreal MPM-10
Weight 26.5 t (238 t 9-car train)

Montreal MR-63
Weight 26,080 kg (57,500 lb) per car (unladen)

Ottawa Alstom Citadis Spirit
Cannot find the weight.

Ottawa Stadler FLIRT
Weight 76–206 t (75–203 long tons; 84–227 short tons)

Ottawa Alstom Coradia LINT
Cannot find weight

Find the weight for the LRT. I wouldn't put the flirts in the same category as street trams. The trillium line is cool. The FLIRT is usually ran as a commuter train.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Find the weight for the LRT. I wouldn't put the flirts in the same category as street trams. The trillium line is cool. The FLIRT is usually ran as a commuter train.

I looked online and could not find anything.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I looked online and could not find anything.

Yeah I couldn't either.

It appears though that Ottawa trains are not exactly the same as the street cars. I read online they were made a bit longer than the other Alstom Citadis. They were uprgaded specially for the Ottawa system.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yeah I couldn't either.

It appears though that Ottawa trains are not exactly the same as the street cars. I read online they were made a bit longer than the other Alstom Citadis. They were uprgaded specially for the Ottawa system.

There is a lot of differences between the Alstom Citadis and the Alstom Citadis Spirit used in Ottawa. This is part of the reliability problem.

The Spirit was not just built for the Ottawa project but the North American market in general that has different requirements compared to the European market. The Spirit will be used for a couple of other Ontario projects (Finch LRT, Hurontario LRT I believe).

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is a lot of differences between the Alstom Citadis and the Alstom Citadis Spirit used in Ottawa. This is part of the reliability problem.

The Spirit was not just built for the Ottawa project but the North American market in general that has different requirements compared to the European market. The Spirit will be used for a couple of other Ontario projects (Finch LRT, Hurontario LRT I believe).

Yes but I'm pretty sure Ottawa was the first to order them. Ottawa was the guinea pig in this experiment.

If the Finch line is using these same trains I really hope for the sake of the transit users it works out better than expected. In any case they were meant to run on the street.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yes but I'm pretty sure Ottawa was the first to order them. Ottawa was the guinea pig in this experiment.

If the Finch line is using these same trains I really hope for the sake of the transit users it works out better than expected. In any case they were meant to run on the street.

I really don't think that will make one bit of difference.

[J.OT13]

Stage 2 West progress.

Algonquin (Line 1 terminus, underground station) and Iris.

• Video Link

Richmond/Byron tunnel.

• Video Link

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Luisito

That's complete and utter Nonses it is also gas lighting. There is a reason it's called light rail. Metro trains are bigger and much large than trams and move faster, and carry more people. How can you sit there and even deny this? Just curious, Have you ever actually been on a subway or LRT system? There is nothing vague about it metro trains and LRT are different.

The problem isn't that metro and LRT trains have differences. It's that you're applying false meaning to those differences. The meaning is merely your interpretation.

In terms of the weight, that has nothing to do with the technical issues but fine. Metro trains are heavier only if they're longer which they often are but Ottawa's LRT consists are actually longer than they'd need if using metro stock so that's a non-issue. For comparison, the low-floor siemens S70 LRT is 43,700kg for a 24.11m long car which is about 1820.8kg per meter compared to the Toronto rocket subway car which is 34,167kg per 23m long car or 1485.5kg per meter. And the Toronto subway cars are about 1/2m wider to boot. You're making authoritative claims about things you just aren't knowledgeable on. I can "sit here and deny" false claims because I'm aware of the actual stats on the topic.

But your question about whether I've ridden different vehicles tells a lot about why you get certain things wrong. People can't weigh vehicles by riding them. But you seem to base most of your conclusions on what feels most intuitive to you rather than on actual verified data (which is related to argument from incredulity), Intuition and impressions just aren't reliable sources of knowledge in many aspects of the modern world so if you rely on them and refuse to acknowledge facts then you're going to get a lot of things wrong. Plus you're denying yourself the chance to gain real knowledge about a topic when you decide that you already know everything about it.

Originally Posted by Luisito

The amount of people getting on did cause tecnical problems. The lack of doors and the amount of people caused major problems early on. Tram doors are not designed to be pushed like metro trains doors. They had to shut the whole system down over the issue with the doors.

While there are different door types, there are none that are strictly for metro system or strictly for trams as different types of doors can be used on different types of vehicles. For instance, the newer stock on the Stockholm metro, Munich u-bahn and Oslo Metro are a couple examples of metros that use plug-style doors.

• Video Link

As far as I've heard, the door style hasn't debilitated these metro systems, several of which are much busier than Ottawa's. Plus there are plenty of very busy tram and LRT systems which use this door style including of Paris tram lines, several of which are busier than the Confederation Line. But if that style of doors were a problem in Ottawa, they could have used something different while still using LRT stock if they wanted to. Not that they should have, but an issue with a particular door isn't a general issue with LRVs.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The problem isn't that metro and LRT trains have differences. It's that you're applying false meaning to those differences.

LOL Ok man if you say so. Good luck to Ottawa with it's trains.

On a more positive note here is a good video about the Montreal metro blue line.
• Video Link

[Coldrsx]

Jesus H

---
Rod
@rodmaldaner
TransEd confirms to @CityNewsYEG that they are inspecting cracks that have appeared on at least one pillar around the Davis LRT station. It is not known at this time if it is a structural concern. The @CityofEdmonton is aware of this situation. #yeg #yegtransit #yegtraffic #CoE


https://twitter.com/rodmaldaner/status/1...rt-m-s-city-of-edmonton.24534%2Fpage-291

[Luisito]

They should just shut it down. Better to be safe than sorry. People might die. What a disaster. SMH

[Nite]

I am kind of glad both Ottawa and Edmonton are having such troubles, because they both decide to have novel system instead of just copying an existing system operating in Canada. As ever standardization would have stopped both these problems.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Nite

I am kind of glad both Ottawa and Edmonton are having such troubles, because they both decide to have novel system instead of just copying an existing system operating in Canada. As ever standardization would have stopped both these problems.

What system do you think they should have adopted? What do you mean by standardization? In the case of Edmonton I don't understand why they didn't stick to the original trains they had. They are pretty good trains.

In the case of the elevated sections that is something else. Who ever they hired did to build that did a terrible job. I don't think the city shouldn't even risk running those lines.

[ciudad_del_norte]

Originally Posted by Nite

I am kind of glad both Ottawa and Edmonton are having such troubles, because they both decide to have novel system instead of just copying an existing system operating in Canada. As ever standardization would have stopped both these problems.

Standardization of concrete pier design and construction? I'm not sure that how it works. I'm not sure Edmonton's issues have much to do with a "novel" system as much as a substantial problem in engineering and/or cosntruction.

[Coldrsx]

Missing rebar for axial loads is a real whoopsy.

[Metro-One]

Well, for example, Skytrain in Vancouver has been successfully operating elevated rail for decades, boom, just copy that design.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Well, for example, Skytrain in Vancouver has been successfully operating elevated rail for decades, boom, just copy that design.

And for those that say:

"BUT THEY DON'T HAVE SNOW, DUUR."

Then get the government to throw a roof over the rail. You would likely save the money doing an automated system (in terms of operating expenses, read: driver wages) to the point where the maintenance of a snow roof thrown ontop of some surface rail, would probably be less expensive.